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ahuff
01-09-2008, 02:38 AM
Yesterday's HOF vote got me thinking. Who do you believe is the biggest HOF snub?

I think it comes down to 4 guys: Rice, Dawson, Blyleven, and Smith. My personal belief is that it has to go to Bert Blyleven or Lee Smith. My reasoning is this.

Though I'm a Cub fan, I was never a big fan of Smith. That being said, Lee Smith was great, and no one would be wrong for saying he should be in. Personally, I believe he deserves in more than Goose. But perhaps that goes back to the hanging pitches that taunted this Cub fan during Goose's days in Chicago. Smith held the saves record until Hoffman came along. Guys like Wilhelm, Quisenberry, and Fingers certainly were the early guys to begin to change how the closer was used. I believe Lee made the position what it is today. I don't understand how you can vote in the #17 saves leader and the #21 guy, but not the #2. I believe it just goes to show how ignorant the election system is.

Jim Rice - Played 16 seasons, which might be his biggest downfall. Had he been able to play another good 3 seasons, one would have to assume that he would be much closer to critical numbers 500 and 3000. Instead he comes in with 2,452 hits and 382 home runs. His career .298 average is great. Though there was a noticeable dip in statistics during that last 3 year period. Perhaps this indicated that the elusive numbers would never have been achieved.

Andre Dawson - Fell short of critical numbers 500 HR (438) and 3000 Hits (2774). He did this in an era where other guys did accumulate these statistics. I don't truly believe he is a HOFer.

Bert Blyleven - Fell short of 300 Wins by a mere 13 (287). But was well over the 3,000 K level (3,701) and had a career ERA of 3.31 during a span of 22 seasons. He is #5 in all-time strikeouts. Guys like Jim Palmer, Robin Roberts, and Bob Feller are all behind him in the wins list. However, they are all in. How can he not be in?

Vintagedeputy
01-09-2008, 06:59 AM
Bleyleven, easily

skyking26
01-09-2008, 07:51 AM
Blyleven and Smith easily. While I have great respect for the sluggers, their numbers are short...

G1X
01-09-2008, 08:13 AM
Marvin Miller by far.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

ahuff
01-09-2008, 08:28 AM
Marvin Miller

That is a good point. I've thought he should have been in years ago. He certainly has changed the face of the game, though financially not statistically. I think that snub came from the newly redesigned veterans committee. Not that it makes too much of a difference.

suave1477
01-09-2008, 11:45 AM
DARRYL STRAWBERRY!!!!:p :D

ILL EVEN VOTE TWICE FOR HIM LOL LOL

5kRunner
01-09-2008, 12:30 PM
I think Blyleven is probably the biggest snub. But I think Smith gets in before he does. And they both deserve it.

The thing I hate about the Hall of Fame voting is the fact that once a guy reaches one of the magical numbers (500 HR, 3000 Hits, 300 Wins), he sails in. If a player falls a little short, he struggles to get votes.

byergo
01-09-2008, 01:10 PM
In the NFL: Derrick Thomas by a landslide. Greatest pure speed rusher of All Time, records galore both NFL and collegiate, NFL Man of the Year great community figure in KC, tons of Pro Bowls, one of the biggest Defensive impact players of all time who had to be game planned for--the offense had to know where DT was at all times. So many turnovers, the "Called Safety" vs Oakland, the "KC Strip" move, etc...

misteremu
01-09-2008, 01:59 PM
Rusty Staub!! A top fifty'ish for many all-time records.

Also played on some of the crappiest teams in his prime known to mankind! Plus, used to cook up a mean plate-ful of ribs in New York City!

*Over 2,700 hits, 53rd all-time
*292 career home runs
*.279 lifetime average
*1,466 RBI's, 50th all-time
* 43rd all-time with 1,255 walks
*47th all-time with 499 career doubles
*8th all time in Sac flies with 119
*37th all time for times on base
*6 time all star, with a .600 batting average over those 6 games.
*Batted .423 in his lone World Series appearance, .341 in two total post season appearances with a .683 slugging percentage in those two series
*One of the best pinch hitters later in his career

reed1216
01-09-2008, 03:01 PM
Yesterday's HOF vote got me thinking. Who do you believe is the biggest HOF snub?

I think it comes down to 4 guys: Rice, Dawson, Blyleven, and Smith.

I think all four names on this list deserve HOF enshrinement. There's no question that Lee Smith was a dominating, intimidating closer. I don't think it's fair to say he's better than the Goose, but that's debatable. In my opinion, Smith continued the evolution of the role of the closer, but Gossage was one of the pioneers. Gossage has a slew of two and three inning saves and for a significant stretch of his career, was the most dominant pitcher in the bigs. Smith was a little more of a one inning specialist, albeit a Hall of Fame worthy one.

Blyleven's numbers shouldn't be ignored. His strikeout totals should get in serious consideration. However, the fact that he won 287 games pitching for mediocre teams pushes him over the top, in my eyes. The dominating curveball seals the deal for me. With that said, among these four, I would place him as the fourth most worthy candidate- still deserving of enshrinement though.

Rice and Dawson are more interesting. Without question, both were dominant players in their eras. Moreover, both won MVPs and were consistantly among the league leaders in several offensive catagories and each has an MVP award to their credit. What makes them HOF worthy, in my opinion, is the fear they put in the hearts of opposing players and fans.

I can't stand the Red Sox, but when Rice came to bat against my Yankees, I held my breath and watched. Sure, both he and Dawson, for the matter, fell short of many statistical milestones. But stats don't always tell the whole story. These guys were, are and always will be HOFers in my book. Had they played in the steroid/expansion era, they'd have reached those milestones and would already be in Cooperstown.

David
01-09-2008, 03:05 PM
I think it's hard to call it a snub when a player is still eligible and could very well be elected in in the near future. A few years ago people said Bruce Sutter was snubbed and he now resides in the HOF. Gossage was "snubbed" and is a Hall of Famer. Whether you're voted in in year 1 or year 7, you're just as much a Hall of Famer. In fact, you could field a heck of a team from people not elected in their first years (Anyone want Joe DiMaggio or Jimmie Foxx on their fantasy team?)

chakes89
01-09-2008, 04:36 PM
Dave Concepcion

If Ozzie Smith and Phil Rizzuto are HOFers, Dave Concecpcion is

Birdbats
01-09-2008, 05:27 PM
Don't know if I'd call it the biggest snub, but Ted Simmons' lack of support is a major head scratcher. When you look at his numbers compared to catchers who already are in the HOF, it's hard to believe he didn't get enough votes to even remain on the ballot. Simmons ranks in the top 5 among catchers in 15 categories and in the top 10 in 17 categories. He excelled in reaching base, driving in runs and getting extra base hits... he was a switch hitter... and while he wasn't in Bench's class defensively, his fielding percentage of .987 was comparable to Fisk, Dickey and Campanella and better than the MLB average during Simmons' career. It'll be interesting to see what the veteran's committee does with Simmons. I wonder if anyone who didn't pull 5% of the writer's vote ever got elected by the vets?

Here's a good article that makes Ted's case: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0FCI/is_8_61/ai_88575158

HOW TED SIMMONS RATES WITH HALL OF FAME CATCHERS

RUNS

Carlton Fisk 1,276
Yogi Berra 1,175
Buck Ewing 1,118
Johnny Bench 1,091
Ted Simmons 1,074
Mickey Cochrane 1,041
Bill Dickey 930
Gabby Hartnett 867
Rick Ferrell 687
Roger Bresnahan 684
Roy Campanella 627
Ernie Lombardi 601
Ray Schalk 579

HITS

Ted Simmons 2,472
Carlton Fisk 2,356
Yogi Berra 2,150
Johnny Bench 2,048
Bill Dickey 1,969
Gabby Hartnett 1,912
Ernie Lombardi 1,792
Rick Ferrell 1,692
Buck Ewing 1,663
Mickey Cochrane 1,652
Ray Schalk 1,345
Roger Bresnahan 1,251
Roy Campanella 1,161

DOUBLES

Ted Simmons 483
Carlton Fisk 421
Gabby Hartnett 396
Johnny Bench 381
Bill Dickey 343
Mickey Cochrane 333
Rick Ferrell 324
Yogi Berra 321
Ernie Lombardi 277
Buck Ewing 237
Roger Bresnahan 222
Ray Schalk 199
Roy Companella 178

HOME RUNS

Johnny Bench 389
Carlton Fisk 376
Yogi Berra 358
Ted Simmons 248
Roy Campanella 242
Gabby Hartnett 236
Bill Dickey 202
Ernie Lombardi 190
Mickey Cochrane 119
Buck Ewing 66
Rick Ferrell 28
Roger Bresnahan 26
Ray Schalk 12

RBI

Yogi Berra 1,430
Ted Simmons 1,389
Carlton Fisk 1,386
Johnny Bench 1,376
Bill Dickey 1,209
Gabby Hartnett 1,179
Ernie Lombardi 990
Buck Ewing 883
Roy Campanella 856
Mickey Cochrane 832
Rick Ferrell 734
Ray Schalk 596
Roger Bresnahan 531

BATTING AVERAGE

Mickey Cochrane .320
Bill Dickey .313
Ernie Lombardi .306
Buck Ewing .303
Gabby Hartnett .297
Ted Simmons .285
Yogi Berra .285
Rick Ferrell .281
Roger Bresnahan .279
Roy Campanella .276
Carlton Fisk .269
Johnny Bench .267
Ray Schalk .253

GAMES CAUGHT

Carlton Fisk 2,226
Rick Ferrell 1,806
Gabby Hartnett 1,793
Ted Simmons 1,771
Johnny Bench 1,742
Ray Schalk 1,727
Bill Dickey 1,708
Yogi Berra 1,699
Ernie Lombardi 1,544
Mickey Cochrane 1,451
Roy Campanella 1,183
Roger Bresnahan 974
Buck Ewing 636

FIELDING AVG. AS CATCHER

Listed are each catcher's career
fielding average (FA) as a catcher
and the average fielding percentage
for catchers during his
career--League Fielding Percentage
(LPCT)

Catcher FA LPCT

Johnny Bench .990 .987
Yogi Berra .989 .987
Bill Dickey .988 .982
Roy Campanella .988 .984
Carlton Fisk .988 .986
Ted Simmons .987 .986
Mickey Cochrane .985 .980
Rick Ferrell .984 .982
Gabby Hartnett .984 .978
Ray Schalk .981 .971
Ernie Lombardi .979 .980
Roger Bresnahan .971 .968
Buck Ewing .931 .906

harpt
01-09-2008, 06:04 PM
Jeff,

As you know, I couldn't agree more.

earlywynnfan
01-09-2008, 07:34 PM
Dave Concepcion

If Ozzie Smith and Phil Rizzuto are HOFers, Dave Concecpcion is

The problem with that mentality is it lets all kinds of people in. We can go on forever with these type of comparisons. If Catfish Hunter is a HOFer, so is Luis Tiant. If Rube Marquard is a HOFer, so is Mel Harder. If Lefty Gomez is a HOFer, so is Carl Mays. Or, to link to another thread, if Kirby Puckett is a HOFer, so is Don Mattingly.

We can't use past mistakes as reasons to put in more mistakes, even if the second group is better than the first.

Instead of comparing someone on the outside to someone on the inside, I think you need to just focus on the outside player: Was he the best at his position for his generation? Did he revolutionize his position? Was he elite??

Rice and Belle were the most feared sluggers of their time. Blyleven won more games than most, had a fantastic ERA, and had one of the best curveballs ever. Sutter and Gossage, when the came in, the game was over! (Gossage actually hung on too long, fostering feelings like the Cubs fan has.) Minnie Minoso could beat you with a very rare (for the era) power and speed combination, and that's after racism took at least a half dozen years off his career. If Rickey Henderson took up football, Tim Raines would be known as the all-time greatest baserunner.

Ken

Neely8
01-11-2008, 01:24 AM
I think it is ludicrous that Pete Rose is not in the HOF when we have juice heads breaking records who will probably get in. At least everything he did on the field was legit.

nomarmauerfan
01-11-2008, 07:37 AM
I think it gets too confusing to look at overall stats. Then, its easy to ask why so and so is in, and why so and so isn't (if Puckett's in, why not Mattingly, Fisk, why not Simmons). I think a better way to look at it is who were the top players of the decade. Who are the best position players of the 80's, 90's, and 2000's? And, are they in. If they're on that list, then they were the best player at their position for a 10-year period. To me, that warrants the HOF. We can certainly have some great discussions on guys that comprise the All-Decade teams.

Mike

suave1477
01-11-2008, 09:11 AM
Jeff I found these numbers very interesting and as a Posada fan I looked at his numbers and compared them to the players you have listed and it seems Posada comes in the middle of the players lists in just about every category. It makes me wonder if he will get in the hof????
One thing that does work in his favor is he is still playing so it gives him sometime to put up some more numbers to pass some players on these lists. Plus he has 4 rings and a 4 x all star hope those help.





Don't know if I'd call it the biggest snub, but Ted Simmons' lack of support is a major head scratcher. When you look at his numbers compared to catchers who already are in the HOF, it's hard to believe he didn't get enough votes to even remain on the ballot. Simmons ranks in the top 5 among catchers in 15 categories and in the top 10 in 17 categories. He excelled in reaching base, driving in runs and getting extra base hits... he was a switch hitter... and while he wasn't in Bench's class defensively, his fielding percentage of .987 was comparable to Fisk, Dickey and Campanella and better than the MLB average during Simmons' career. It'll be interesting to see what the veteran's committee does with Simmons. I wonder if anyone who didn't pull 5% of the writer's vote ever got elected by the vets?

Here's a good article that makes Ted's case: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0FCI/is_8_61/ai_88575158

HOW TED SIMMONS RATES WITH HALL OF FAME CATCHERS

RUNS

Carlton Fisk 1,276
Yogi Berra 1,175
Buck Ewing 1,118
Johnny Bench 1,091
Ted Simmons 1,074
Mickey Cochrane 1,041
Bill Dickey 930
Gabby Hartnett 867
Rick Ferrell 687
Roger Bresnahan 684
Roy Campanella 627
Ernie Lombardi 601
Ray Schalk 579

HITS

Ted Simmons 2,472
Carlton Fisk 2,356
Yogi Berra 2,150
Johnny Bench 2,048
Bill Dickey 1,969
Gabby Hartnett 1,912
Ernie Lombardi 1,792
Rick Ferrell 1,692
Buck Ewing 1,663
Mickey Cochrane 1,652
Ray Schalk 1,345
Roger Bresnahan 1,251
Roy Campanella 1,161

DOUBLES

Ted Simmons 483
Carlton Fisk 421
Gabby Hartnett 396
Johnny Bench 381
Bill Dickey 343
Mickey Cochrane 333
Rick Ferrell 324
Yogi Berra 321
Ernie Lombardi 277
Buck Ewing 237
Roger Bresnahan 222
Ray Schalk 199
Roy Companella 178

HOME RUNS

Johnny Bench 389
Carlton Fisk 376
Yogi Berra 358
Ted Simmons 248
Roy Campanella 242
Gabby Hartnett 236
Bill Dickey 202
Ernie Lombardi 190
Mickey Cochrane 119
Buck Ewing 66
Rick Ferrell 28
Roger Bresnahan 26
Ray Schalk 12

RBI

Yogi Berra 1,430
Ted Simmons 1,389
Carlton Fisk 1,386
Johnny Bench 1,376
Bill Dickey 1,209
Gabby Hartnett 1,179
Ernie Lombardi 990
Buck Ewing 883
Roy Campanella 856
Mickey Cochrane 832
Rick Ferrell 734
Ray Schalk 596
Roger Bresnahan 531

BATTING AVERAGE

Mickey Cochrane .320
Bill Dickey .313
Ernie Lombardi .306
Buck Ewing .303
Gabby Hartnett .297
Ted Simmons .285
Yogi Berra .285
Rick Ferrell .281
Roger Bresnahan .279
Roy Campanella .276
Carlton Fisk .269
Johnny Bench .267
Ray Schalk .253

GAMES CAUGHT

Carlton Fisk 2,226
Rick Ferrell 1,806
Gabby Hartnett 1,793
Ted Simmons 1,771
Johnny Bench 1,742
Ray Schalk 1,727
Bill Dickey 1,708
Yogi Berra 1,699
Ernie Lombardi 1,544
Mickey Cochrane 1,451
Roy Campanella 1,183
Roger Bresnahan 974
Buck Ewing 636

FIELDING AVG. AS CATCHER

Listed are each catcher's career
fielding average (FA) as a catcher
and the average fielding percentage
for catchers during his
career--League Fielding Percentage
(LPCT)

Catcher FA LPCT

Johnny Bench .990 .987
Yogi Berra .989 .987
Bill Dickey .988 .982
Roy Campanella .988 .984
Carlton Fisk .988 .986
Ted Simmons .987 .986
Mickey Cochrane .985 .980
Rick Ferrell .984 .982
Gabby Hartnett .984 .978
Ray Schalk .981 .971
Ernie Lombardi .979 .980
Roger Bresnahan .971 .968
Buck Ewing .931 .906

Vintagedeputy
01-11-2008, 09:25 AM
Suave,

I'm a big Posada fan too and at age 37, he just had his best season to date. Like you, I inserted him in the list to see where he falls. Pretty neat stuff!


Jim


RUNS

Carlton Fisk 1,276
Yogi Berra 1,175
Buck Ewing 1,118
Johnny Bench 1,091
Ted Simmons 1,074
Mickey Cochrane 1,041
Bill Dickey 930
Gabby Hartnett 867
POSADA 744
Rick Ferrell 687
Roger Bresnahan 684
Roy Campanella 627
Ernie Lombardi 601
Ray Schalk 579

HITS

Ted Simmons 2,472
Carlton Fisk 2,356
Yogi Berra 2,150
Johnny Bench 2,048
Bill Dickey 1,969
Gabby Hartnett 1,912
Ernie Lombardi 1,792
Rick Ferrell 1,692
Buck Ewing 1,663
Mickey Cochrane 1,652
Ray Schalk 1,345
POSADA 1334
Roger Bresnahan 1,251
Roy Campanella 1,161

DOUBLES

Ted Simmons 483
Carlton Fisk 421
Gabby Hartnett 396
Johnny Bench 381
Bill Dickey 343
Mickey Cochrane 333
Rick Ferrell 324
Yogi Berra 321
POSADA 304
Ernie Lombardi 277
Buck Ewing 237
Roger Bresnahan 222
Ray Schalk 199
Roy Companella 178

HOME RUNS

Johnny Bench 389
Carlton Fisk 376
Yogi Berra 358
Ted Simmons 248
Roy Campanella 242
Gabby Hartnett 236
POSADA 218
Bill Dickey 202
Ernie Lombardi 190
Mickey Cochrane 119
Buck Ewing 66
Rick Ferrell 28
Roger Bresnahan 26
Ray Schalk 12

RBI

Yogi Berra 1,430
Ted Simmons 1,389
Carlton Fisk 1,386
Johnny Bench 1,376
Bill Dickey 1,209
Gabby Hartnett 1,179
Ernie Lombardi 990
Buck Ewing 883
POSADA 861
Roy Campanella 856
Mickey Cochrane 832
Rick Ferrell 734
Ray Schalk 596
Roger Bresnahan 531

BATTING AVERAGE

Mickey Cochrane .320
Bill Dickey .313
Ernie Lombardi .306
Buck Ewing .303
Gabby Hartnett .297
Ted Simmons .285
Yogi Berra .285
Rick Ferrell .281
Roger Bresnahan .279
POSADA 277
Roy Campanella .276
Carlton Fisk .269
Johnny Bench .267
Ray Schalk .253

GAMES CAUGHT

Carlton Fisk 2,226
Rick Ferrell 1,806
Gabby Hartnett 1,793
Ted Simmons 1,771
Johnny Bench 1,742
Ray Schalk 1,727
Bill Dickey 1,708
Yogi Berra 1,699
Ernie Lombardi 1,544
Mickey Cochrane 1,451
POSADA 1,360
Roy Campanella 1,183
Roger Bresnahan 974
Buck Ewing 636

FIELDING AVG. AS CATCHER

Listed are each catcher's career
fielding average (FA) as a catcher
and the average fielding percentage
for catchers during his
career--League Fielding Percentage
(LPCT)

Catcher FA LPCT

POSADA .992 / LPCT ?
Johnny Bench .990 .987
Yogi Berra .989 .987
Bill Dickey .988 .982
Roy Campanella .988 .984
Carlton Fisk .988 .986
Ted Simmons .987 .986
Mickey Cochrane .985 .980
Rick Ferrell .984 .982
Gabby Hartnett .984 .978
Ray Schalk .981 .971
Ernie Lombardi .979 .980
Roger Bresnahan .971 .968
Buck Ewing .931 .906

suave1477
01-11-2008, 10:12 AM
Vintage even though he had his best season, he can still add a bit more within 3 years to creep a couple of spots on some of those lists.

gingi79
01-11-2008, 04:48 PM
I think we all have a favorite who belongs in the Hall but won't get in. For me, it's Dale Murphy.

Look at his career stats and it's a no brainer. He Does NOT have the numbers to qualify. But if all we are using is pure stats than the HOF will soon become the "Hall of very Good Players who Hung on too long to get to 3000 hits or 500 Hrs."

I know I will get flamed for this but Biggio is NOT a HOF player. He wasn't the best player at his position any year he played (He had 3 different positions too if I'm not mistaken) No pitcher ever worried about pitching to him. He wasn't feared in the field or at bat. I like Biggio, but he was a good player, not a HOF player.

He'll make the Hall though, because he is a stat compiler. He was gifted with talent and lucky enough that his genes were good enough to play at the top level for years without major injury. He wasn't ever up for MVP or in the top 10 in HRs, RBIs, etc. In short, he is ONLY making the HOF because people like him and he played long enough to get 3000 hits.

Murph was arguably the BEST player in the Major Leagues for 5 years. He won Back to Back NL MVP's playing for a terrible Braves team. He was feared as a hitter and as a fielder. He just doesn't have the numbers because he wasn't able to sustain his great seasons for 3 more years and he stopped playing 5 years before he would have compiled the stats to look better for the ballot.

Those old timers will understand why I say Murph belongs in under the same reasons that Sandy Koufax belongs in. Koufax was awful for the first 5 seasons of his career but then had 5 seasons of being the best pitcher in baseball. 5 great seasons got him in. Transpose that type of thinking to a non-steroid era hitter and Murph should be in.

Oh and Jim Rice is not in the HOF because he was an a-hole as a player , especially to the sportswriters and enough of them are still on the voting committee to keep him out. He was an amazing hitter for years but being obnoxious won't endear you to the people resonsible for letting you into the HOF.

ahuff
01-11-2008, 05:29 PM
gingi79,

I believe you might be mistaken. If you take a look at this site, you will see that Biggio was the best at his position for several years.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/biggicr01.shtml

It indicates he was a 7 time all star, won 4 gold gloves, 5 silver slugger awards (at both C and 2B), and still compiled over 3,000 hits. His batting average did dip at the end of his career, but his doubles and homers seemed to maintain a steady pace.

loumud
03-25-2008, 06:21 PM
gingi79,

I believe you might be mistaken. If you take a look at this site, you will see that Biggio was the best at his position for several years.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/biggicr01.shtml

It indicates he was a 7 time all star, won 4 gold gloves, 5 silver slugger awards (at both C and 2B), and still compiled over 3,000 hits. His batting average did dip at the end of his career, but his doubles and homers seemed to maintain a steady pace.

To resurrect an old thread, I also think Biggio epitomizes how everyone thinks players in baseball should be, and represents the romantic notion of the way the game used to be played in the good 'ole days. He stuck with one team through thick and thin instead of chasing dollars with other teams, switched positions several times to make room for other players the team needed (and didn't complain about it in public on Sportscenter), and he kept himself in great shape enough to stay healthy for all those 19 years! I think his stamina and hard work on and off the field speak volumes on the type of person he is. Plus, he has key numbers to back his inevitable entrance into the Hall. If there was ever a player to look up to in the history of the game, it is Craig Biggio! For that reason alone, he deserves to make it!

cohibasmoker
03-25-2008, 08:05 PM
How about Curt Flood?

-He was a three-time All-Star
-seven-time Gold Glove winner;
-hit over .300 six times in 15 years

And when he challenged the "reserve clause" in baseball, he was probably the premier centerfielder in baseball at that time. He ultimately and forever changed the game of baseball.

Jim

earlywynnfan
03-25-2008, 10:47 PM
How about Curt Flood?

Yes!!!!


Here's my thought for the HOF, and I'm ready for all sorts of abuse:

NO MORE YANKEES!!!!

I don't know if I'm the only one, but I sure get sick and tired of New York being the center of the universe. To all of you who live there, guess what: there's a whole country out there! Go experience it.

But no, the rest of us have to put up with Catfish and Gomez and other marginal HOFers. Seriously, would anyone be crying about Mattingly not being in the HOF if he was a Royal or an Angel? Joe D. the greatest of all time? PLEASE!!


And Red Sox Nation, the rest of us are getting a little tired of you, too!

Ken

(Well, Jeter does seem like a class act and a true star, so we'll let him in.)

Swoboda4
03-27-2008, 04:43 PM
by far RIGGS STEPHENSON
lifetime batting average(14 seasons):.336
http://www.baseball-reference.com/s/stephri01.shtml
http://pro.corbis.com/images/VV10066.jpg?size=67&uid={639e19e0-dee5-442c-b470-87ad4f4897cb}