Mitchell Report - Clemens * vs. Bonds *

[3arod13]

Changes the whole outlook about Bonds, asteriks, and future hall of fame, now that Clemens is in the mix. Everyone now is talking about McGwire going into the hall of fame next year because of the Mitchell Report.

Liked vs. hated...changes everything

I think when it's all said and done, we'll all move on realizing this is the way it was during that era. Don't like it either, but it will pass like many other things do.

As the young people say, "Don't hate the game...hate the player."

[dodgersfan]

As the young people say, "Don't hate the game...hate the player



It should read "Don't hate the player...hate the game"


Rudy

[3arod13]

As the young people say, "Don't hate the game...hate the player



It should read "Don't hate the player...hate the game"


Rudy

See, I just showed my age. Thanks for correct this old man!

[PudgePollyMillerFan]

Good thing I just picked up some stock in the asterisk * market....looks like they will be hot items!

[whatupyos]

AROD-

I hope the game gets back to a drug free state. I believe the game will mend in time. The thing that gets me is all the people who say "they cheated". Thats the opinion of a lot of people. Now wouldn't there have to be a rule in baseball saying NO STERIODS or PERFORMANCE ENHANCING DRUGS for it to be cheating. There was no rule!! I know there is a law, but if it meant that much to baseball...why on Gods green Earth was there no rule?? That gets me! Am I the only one who doesn't see it as cheating? Since there was no rule, that means, everyone in MLB could have done it if they had wanted to. It was even and free for all to participate should they have wanted too. I know I'd find a way to work around the rules of the game to get a leg up on competition. I'd follow the rules, but if there was no rule, then why not? Now, I'm not addressing you to discredit you or pick a fight, just because its your post did I address you, but I pose this question to everyone. For something to be cheating in the game of baseball there'd have to be a rule against it, which there wasn't.

Aaron

[cjclong]

I'm hearing people on television saying they don't think Clemons will be voted into the Hall of Fame now. Both Bonds and Clemons had careers that probably would have entitled them to Hall of Fame status if they had stopped playing before any steroid accusations were made. How are players who had careers that would have put them in Hall without counting the years they were accused of using steroids to be treated?

[kingjammy24]

"wouldn't there have to be a rule in baseball saying NO STERIODS or PERFORMANCE ENHANCING DRUGS for it to be cheating. There was no rule!! I know there is a law, but if it meant that much to baseball...why on Gods green Earth was there no rule??"

there was a rule. from 1991:

"The basic drug policy for the game is simply stated: There is no place for illegal drug use in Baseball. The use of illegal drugs by players, umpires, owners, front office, League or Commissioner's office personnel, trainers or anyone else involved in the game cannot be condoned or tolerated.....The possession, sale, or use of any illegal drug or controlled substance by Major League players or personnel is strictly prohibited. Major League players or personnel involved in the possession, sale or use of any illegal drug or controlled substance are subject to discipline by the Commissioner and risk permanent expulsion from the game...This prohibition applies to all illegal drugs and controlled substances, including steroids or prescription drugs for which the individual in possession of the drug does not have a prescription".

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/eticket/format/memos20051109?memo=1991

how much more of a rule do you want? it's pretty clear, straight from the MLB commissioner, and even outlines the punishment.

rudy.

[David]

Whatupyos, if players didn't think it was cheating and are shamed about the use, then why to players refuse to discuss their use back even when it wasn't against baseball's rules? That they refuse to talk it about shows that the players themselves consider it cheating and considered it cheating.

Using steroids has LONG been consider cheating by all athletes and fans, long before Ben Johnson was kicked out of the 1988 Olympics.

I don't need to refer to the cricket handbook to know that intentionally kicking your opponent in the nuts from behind during play when the referee isn't looking is cheating. I know nothing about cricket and know it's cheating.

As Mitchell said, using steroids is against the law, against baseball's rules (since 1991) and gives the user an unfair advantage over the majority of players who follow the law and rules. Spin it any way you want, but that's cheating.

[Tedw9]

The drugs they were accused of doing were illegal. MLB didn't need a rule in place, the government already had one.

[David]

I know that when I play cards with my 95 year old grandmother every Thursday, I refer to our rules and if they don't explicitly forbid marking the cards, intentionally miscounting when adding up the scores and looking at her cards when she's putting sugar in her tea, I use a marked deck, fake the score and look at her cards. Because as everyone who plays cards know, if using a marked deck, faking scores and looking at other people's cards isn't specifically written in the rules, it's not cheating. Sorry, Granny, fork over the yarn money, you lose again.

[TNTtoys]

AROD-

I hope the game gets back to a drug free state. I believe the game will mend in time. The thing that gets me is all the people who say "they cheated". Thats the opinion of a lot of people. Now wouldn't there have to be a rule in baseball saying NO STERIODS or PERFORMANCE ENHANCING DRUGS for it to be cheating. There was no rule!! I know there is a law, but if it meant that much to baseball...why on Gods green Earth was there no rule?? That gets me! Am I the only one who doesn't see it as cheating? Since there was no rule, that means, everyone in MLB could have done it if they had wanted to. It was even and free for all to participate should they have wanted too. I know I'd find a way to work around the rules of the game to get a leg up on competition. I'd follow the rules, but if there was no rule, then why not? Now, I'm not addressing you to discredit you or pick a fight, just because its your post did I address you, but I pose this question to everyone. For something to be cheating in the game of baseball there'd have to be a rule against it, which there wasn't.

Aaron


Aaron

This is a common misconception -- just because there is no written rule, it is ok. I firmly believe that where there is a federal law prohibiting the sale and distribution (and of course the use) of these illegal substances, there is no need for a specific rule. I am sure that there are plenty of "laws of the state" that would apply to the game that are not in the written baseball bylaws... take for example Jose Offerman's outburst last year where he attacked an opposing player with a bat. I am sure assault and battery is not in the baseball code but it's against the law nevertheless (by the way, pun was intended on "battery" :o ) .

I do agree with you on one thing... the "cheater" comment. Can we call the batter who (after having taken HGH) hits a towering home run a "cheater"? What if the pitcher throwing to him was on something too? Do they cancel each other out? lol Now that we have the names of 86 "cheaters," are we done? Are there more out there that have cheated but just were smart enough to stay under the radar? Will there be more investigations? Will more names be made public later? Will some of the folks named give away others now (ala Mr. Grimsley)? I think we've come a long way, but we're not quite on a level playing field...

Are there any other forms of "cheating" that we're overlooking? What about corked bats? Or the type of cheating where a pitcher applies a foreign substance to the baseball before throwing a pitch? Gaylord Perry did it for years, admitted to "cheating", and look where he has ended up... in the hall of fame!!!

Nick

[TNTtoys]

I'm hearing people on television saying they don't think Clemons will be voted into the Hall of Fame now. Both Bonds and Clemons had careers that probably would have entitled them to Hall of Fame status if they had stopped playing before any steroid accusations were made. How are players who had careers that would have put them in Hall without counting the years they were accused of using steroids to be treated?
Agree with the point that both players had Hall of Fame careers before they "turned to the dark side of the force." And so did Pete Rose...

But what the true issue is was talked about this morning on NY AM radio... Back in the 1930's, the hall of fame committee described 6 characteristics you should possess to be hall of fame worthy. The first 3 deal with stats, lifetime achievements, etc. We then get into the subective categories; two of which are character and integrity. If these players are denied the right to the hall of fame, they will fall into the same boat as the hit king. They cheated, they lied. They lack character; they lack integrity. Not that they were hall of fame worthy before they began breaking the laws.

[David]

One other thing, if you enter certain pool halls and use 'techniques' because they are not explicitly forbidden by the opponents, you may well end up with your thumbs as they will consider them cheating. If you protest they might reply, "There was no rule against breaking your thumbs, either."

[whatupyos]

Rudy-

I stand corrected. I was under the impression there was no written rule, but since there was, I guess there's no argument.

Aaron

[kingjammy24]

Rudy-

I stand corrected. I was under the impression there was no written rule, but since there was, I guess there's no argument.

Aaron

aaron,

it's a common misconception that there were no rules against illegal drugs/steroids in baseball at the time. i'm not sure how it started but it seems to be an urban myth that's snowballed to the point where many people seem to believe it.

not only did fay vincent clearly outline MLB's stance but in 1997 bud selig reissued the same policy. what MLB didn't have at the time was simply a testing process. lack of a testing process however is not the same thing as a lack of rules.

interestingly enough, steve howe was suspended by MLB 7 times for drug use. in 1992, fay vincent banned howe for life. (howe being the second player banned for life for drug use, the first being fergie jenkins. both were eventually reinstated). in 1995, darryl strawberry was suspended by MLB for drug use. for people who say that baseball had no rules forbidding the use of illegal drugs, how on earth was it then that jenkins, howe and strawberry were suspended?

rudy.

[kingjammy24]

just wanted to add that some people feel that the 1991 edict and it's subsequent 1997 re-issuance doesn't pass muster because it wasn't included in the collecting bargaining agreement at the time. that is to say, the player's association didn't formally recognize and agree with it. (big surprise). players may have felt that the only baseball rules they were bound by were those stated in the CBA. this is a stupid idea though because steroids were against federal law and previous experience had shown that if a player was indicted on federal drug charges, they would likely be suspended by the MLB anyway.

however, given that there was no formal testing policy in the CBA, i'm sure many in baseball felt that their hands were in tied in terms of a course of specific action. that said, at a minimum, fay vincent did say that in 1991, according to the MLB, steroids are forbidden. obviously, noone took it seriously.

here's a list of MLB drug suspensions. over a dozen before 1995 alone:

http://espn.go.com/mlb/news/2000/0228/387204.html

rudy.

[whatupyos]

You're right, I had forgotten about Howe and Straw...Fergie was wayyyy before my time. Reading the Mitchell report, I didn't even know Vida Blue spent time in prison...but again, wayyyy before my time. I'm glad MLB is working to clean up the sport. But whats in the past is in the past. People make mistakes. Baseball is a funny game. Juan Marichal took a bat to a player, and isn't he in the Hall?? Pete Rose gambled and he is not in the Hall, though I believe he should be....how is gambling worse than attempted murder??? Shoeless Joe got caught up in the Black Sox scandal, he hit .375 in the series, have 0 errors and hit the only HR of the series?? So how he he's not in the Hall and was banned in the scandal is beyond me! Personally I think the players/coaches should vote for the Hall. They are the only ones who should vote in my opinion. Too many writers would hold a biased.

[TNTtoys]

Now, here is where this all gets interesting (Rudy, thanks for bringing up Fergie Jenkins).

Jenkins was arrested in 1980 during a routine customs search. He was found to be in possession of:

3 grams of cocaine

2+ grams of hashish

nearly 2 grams of marijuana

Jenkins was suspended indefinitely.

Jenkins later was reinstated, and ultimately inducted into the baseball hall of fame.

So, my question... steriod users... blatent offenders of the drug policy as was Mr. Jenkins. There is a great deal of debate as to whether they should enter the hall of fame. Isn't a precedent set here???

Nick

[kingjammy24]

"Isn't a precedent set here???"

not entirely. steroids inflate stats more than cocaine or marijuana would. mantle could get drunk and take a few greenies in plain view and then step up to the plate and noone would think he was cheating per se. if anything, he was probably at a disadvantage from the hangovers. steroids are another matter. unlike steroids, cocaine or marijuana don't aid in recuperation nor do they make one physically stronger or faster.

i believe the writers might try to somehow ascertain to what degree a players accomplishments were acheived via steroids. the thing is, i don't believe it's possible to suss such a thing out. how can you objectively figure out how many of those homers would've been doubles or fly balls if not for steroids? all you can do is look at a players career prior to steroid use. if canseco is to be believed, mcgwire started juicing it from the get-go. in that case, he didn't have much of a career to examine prior to steroids.

if there is a precedent set in regards to this issue, i believe it was with the writer's reaction when mcgwire first became eligible for the HOF. 500HRs was supposed to be an automatic lock. apparently, not anymore. if 500HRs isn't a lock anymore, then neither is 300wins or 3000hits. it seems as if the writers are willing to disregard such numbers if they believe they weren't acheived honestly.

rudy.

[whatupyos]

Rudy-

Two things...You said cocaine doesn't make one stronger or faster? Man, how does Tyronne Biggums lift that bus to get that quarter under the tire??!! (If you've never watched The Chapelle Show, you wouldn't get my joke there). Crack heads are pretty darn fast man!!!!

In regards to the steriods comment with you hinting that Mac started using from the get go with Canseco. Canseco isn't totally 100% believable. Didn't he say in his book about shooting up with Giambi and Mac (which would be 1997 probably since that was when they all played together last), but Giambi in the report said he didn't start using until 2001. So there is something missing there. I think I'll believe Giambi since Canseco isn't the most believable cat in the world.

[frikativ54]

Now, here is where this all gets interesting (Rudy, thanks for bringing up Fergie Jenkins).

Jenkins was arrested in 1980 during a routine customs search. He was found to be in possession of:

3 grams of cocaine

2+ grams of hashish

nearly 2 grams of marijuana

Jenkins was suspended indefinitely.

Jenkins later was reinstated, and ultimately inducted into the baseball hall of fame.

So, my question... steriod users... blatent offenders of the drug policy as was Mr. Jenkins. There is a great deal of debate as to whether they should enter the hall of fame. Isn't a precedent set here???

Nick

The difference here is that pot and hash and cocaine don't enhance your performance the way steroids do. He was using drugs for his own personal pleasure. Now the Rocket was specifically using steroids to improve his on-field performance. The same is the case for Bonds and his use of both 'roids and HGH. There's no doubt that he never would have broken McGwire's 70 or have 762 career HR if he had never used performance enhancing drugs. Whether or not Jenkins had done the other stuff, his efforts were unrelated to his drug use.