Sell your Clemens stuff..

[TFig27]

O boy, Roger is named

[ziggy]

Is this really a shocker?......Dan Duquette ( former Red Sox GM ) could not justify paying Roger the money he wanted back in 1996-1997 to guy whose career was declining and was only hitting the low 90's on his fastball. All of a sudden he ends up in Toronto bulked up and wins 2 cy youngs? Look at his numbers in his last years in Boston:

1993: 11 - 14
1994: 9-7
1995: 10-5
1996: 10-13

record was 40-39 for the last 4 years in Boston, then he shows up in toronto with new body and goes 21-7 and 20-6 with a couple of cy youngs??

[TFig27]

and now Pettitte was reported as being listed

[TNTtoys]

Where is this information being reported??? I thought the news would not be avaialble until about 1 or 2 today??

[TFig27]

turn on espn

[suave1477]

First of all this isnt new news!!!

Clemens and Pettitte were implicated months ago by Jason Grimsley its just due to the report coming out today the rumors from before are resurfacing but this is nothing new and nothing is confirmed until 2pm today

[whatupyos]

Where is it being reported?? Everywhere!!! Dude, come on, just because its not to officially come out until 11am Pacific time doesn't mean there aren't tons of people close to the report who dont already know the details and leak stuff! How do you think testimony gets leaked and stuff? People leak stuff all the time and talk to the press on condition of being ananomous.

[PudgePollyMillerFan]

not due till 2pm today, but this is the leaked list:
Complete Mitchell List - Brady Anderson, Manny Alexander, Rick Ankiel, Jeff
Bagwell, Barry Bonds, Aaron Boone, Rafaeil Bettancourt, Bret Boone, Milton
Bradley, David Bell, Dante Bichette, Albert Belle, Paul Byrd, Wil Cordero, Ken
Caminiti, Mike Cameron, Ramon Castro, Jose and Ozzie Canseco, Roger Clemens,
Paxton Crawford, Wilson Delgado, Lenny Dykstra, Johnny Damon, Carl Everett, Kyle
Farnsoworth, Ryan Franklin, Troy Glaus, Rich Garces, Jason Grimsley, Troy
Glaus, Juan Gonzalez, Eric Gagne, Nomar Garciaparra, Jason Giambi, JeremyGiambi,
Jose Guillen, Jay Gibbons, Juan Gonzalez, Clay Hensley,Jerry Hairston, Felix
Heredia, Jr., Darren Holmes, Wally Joyner, Darryl Kile, Matt Lawton,Jamie
Lissette, Rob Ladd, Raul Mondesi, Mark McGwire, Guillermo Mota, Robert Machado,
Damian Moss, Abraham Nunez, Trot Nixon, Jose Offerman, Andy Pettitte, Mark
Prior, Neifi Perez, Rafael Palmiero, Albert Pujols, Brian Roberts, Juan Rincon,
John Rocker, Pudge Rodriguez, Sammy Sosa, Scott Schoenweiis, David Segui, Alex
Sanchez, Gary Sheffield, Miguel Tejada, Julian Tavarez,Fernando Tatis, Maurice Vaughn, Jason Varitek, Ismael Valdez, Matt Williams and Kerry Wood

I AM NOT VOUCHING FOR THE VALIDITY OF THIS LIST, but this is what is circulating

[TNTtoys]

Guys, I am at work, not in front of the tube... but the internet is a wonderful thing. Here is something I have been emailed -- but I must add a disclaimer... I have no idea if this is factual or not.

---

Brady Anderson, Manny Alexander, Rick Ankiel, Jeff Bagwell, Barry Bonds, Aaron Boone, Rafaeil Bettancourt, Brett Boone, Milton Bradley, David Bell, Dante Bichette, Albert Belle, Paul Byrd, Wil Cordero, Ken Caminiti, Mike Cameron, Ramon Castro, Jose and Ozzie Canseco, Roger Clemens, Paxton Crawford, Wilson Delgado, Lenny Dykstra, Jonny damon, Carl Everett, Kyle Farnsworth, Ryan Franklin, Troy Glaus, Rich Garces, Jason Grimsely, Juan Gonzalez, Eric Gagne, Nomar Garciaparra, Jason Giambi, Jeremy Giambi, Jose Guillen, Jay Gibbons, Clay Hensley, Jerry Hairston, Felix Heredia, Darren Holmes, Wally Joyner, Darryl Kile, Matt Lawton, Raul Mondesi, Mark McGwire, Guliermo Mota, Robert machado, Damian Moss,Abaham Nunez, Trot Nixon, Jose Offerman, Andy Pettitte, Mark Prior, Neifi Perez, Rafael Palmiero, Albert Pujols, Brain Roberts, Juan Ricon, John Rocker, Pudge Rodriguez, Sammy Sosa, Scott Schoenweis, David Segui, Alex Sanchez, Gary Sheffield, Miguel Tejada, Julian Tavarez, Fernando Tatis, Mo Vaughn, Jason Varitek, Ismael Valdez, Matt Williams, Kerry Wood

[otismalibu]

My sources tell me that Roger Clemens will be participating in next year's Tour de France.

Assuming he can join the rest of the participants prior to the 16th stage.

[suave1477]

THIS IS NOT A FACTUAL LIST THIS WAS A LIST PRODUCED BY A GUY WITH HIS OPINION OF WHO HE THINKS IS ON THE LIST.

THAT IS NOT TO SAY THAT THESE PEOPLE ARE NBOT ON THE LIST BUT THIS HASNT BEEN PUT ON THE NET AS A LIST THAT LEAKED IT HAS BEEN PUT OUT THERE AS A POSSIBLE LIST BY SOMEONES OPINION.

NOT TO MENTION LOOK AT THE NAMES IF THIS IS THE LIST ARE YOU REALLY GOING TO BE ALL THAT SURPRISED.

Gary Sheffield
Lenny Dystra
Barry Bonds
Jason Giambi
Nomar Garciaparra
Rafael Palmeiro
Sammy Sosa
Guillmero Mota
Barry Bonds
Jose Canseco
Ozzie Canseco
Jeremy Giambi
Jason Grimsley
Eric Gagne
Miguel Tejada

I MEAN SERIOUSLY IS ANY OF THESE NAMES A SURPRISE!!!

[JimCaravello]

Barry Bonds is a complete shocker to me - I can't believe he's on this list!! I really thought he was clean and that the increase in the size of his head and hat size was due to his expanding ego over the years.......

[TNTtoys]

To be quite honest, most of that list doesn't come of a surprise... I was however surprised to see Albert Pujols in there. This will be a bit of a blow to the sport.

I was also happy to not see Ken Griffey Jr. or Mike Piazza in the list, as they were always favorites of mine. I always assumed these guys played the game with their own natural abilities. Nice to see something now to back that up.

Also happy to see Alex Rodriguez didn't make the list. I don't like him much, but if he is going to be the successor to the "home run throne", it is refreshing to know that he will get there without help. This record will not be "tainted" for very long...

[ChrisCavalier]

I received some information that there were approximately 70 names on the list and included some others that might be a little surprising. I won't post them here since the report will be out in another couple of hours anyway and we can see them directly rather than speculate. However, I will say that the names above appear to be consistent with what seems to be circulating.

Regards,
Chris

[suave1477]

Tnt remember your saying that with the list of someoens guesses it is not an official list. So Griffey Jr., Alex Rodriguez, Piazza and others could still very well be on the real list. I am surprised that Pujols was mentioned but then again if he is on the real list would you really be that surprised he is a huge guy and has lots of power.

Jim I would have to agree with you I was a bit surprised to see Bonds and I so thought he was clean and I thought what made him big adding to his ego was helium lol lol lol:eek:

[suave1477]

LOOK EVERYONE!!!

Does it really matter who is on the list all the list does is just implicating who received performance enhancing drugs there is still no direct positive proof that any of them took it which an investigation has all been started by a guy who got caught and to ligten his jail time was to be a rat.

So if you can stand here and say McGwire and Bonds records should stay or not make a fuss about there records being held in the Hall of Fame, then what does it matter whos name is on the list. I mean seriously the Hall of Fame carries tainted records so what does all this really prove are those records ever really going to be brought down NO.

So we will just continue to enjoying baseball as we see it on TV knowing there will be a dark cloud over baseball.

AND that is all this report is going to do is add to the dark cloud. Is it going to help baseball??? maybe you say it will clean up baseball??? No it wont because this is just an implication of names not any direct proof and its getting harder and harder for these new performance enhancing drugs to test positive so this is going to always be an on going problem in baseball because there will always be greed which is a human nature and cannot be changed.

[TFig27]

I heard Eddie Gaedel was on the list:
http://images.art.com/images/products/large/10125000/10125965.jpg

Now I need to sell my game used jersey of his
http://www.baseball-almanac.com/players/eddie_gaedel_jersey.jpg

[bigtruck260]

If Albert is there - not surprised that he is linked...but surprised if he actually USED PED.

A shocker was Darryl Kile...man - he's DEAD.

Dave

[Rob L]

Not Eddie Gaedel:eek: That's funny, my 13 year old son and I were talking about the leaks from this report today and we ended up talking about Eddie Gaedel. I told him that his jersey was out there but I never knew who had it. Too bad he doesn't have a game used Spring Training jersey.

Rob L

[TFig27]

Not Eddie Gaedel:eek: That's funny, my 13 year old son and I were talking about the leaks from this report today and we ended up talking about Eddie Gaedel. I told him that his jersey was out there but I never knew who had it. Too bad he doesn't have a game used Spring Training jersey.

Rob L

I just found the picture of that jersey online, I don't own it, although it would be a very interesting piece.

[DConLA]

HELLO GUYS DOES THIS LIST REALLY SUPRISE ANY OF YOU. BECAUSE IF IT DOES I HAVE SOME BEACHFRONT PROPERTY IN THE DESERT I HAVE FOR SALE.
DAN 323 257-4898 daniel248@earthlink.net

[staindsox]

In case anyone is interested, The Hall has the Eddie Gaedel jersey.

Chris

[sicollector1954@insightbb.com]

Glad I collect game used pre-70 stuff!

[kingjammy24]

..all the list does is just implicating who received performance enhancing drugs there is still no direct positive proof that any of them took it ..

hot diggity, the report isn't even out yet and already the denials are comin! MLB PR would be proud. let's get a few others out of the way:

- "i thought it was flax oil!"
- "sure i ordered steroids, but i never actually used them. i just like receiving packages".
- "i accidentally sat on all of those needles!"

can't wait to see what randy hendricks whips up.


.. I mean seriously the Hall of Fame carries tainted records so what does all this really prove are those records ever really going to be brought down NO...maybe you say it will clean up baseball??? No it wont because this is just an implication of names not any direct proof and its getting harder and harder for these new performance enhancing drugs to test positive so this is going to always be an on going problem in baseball because there will always be greed which is a human nature and cannot be changed.

here here. people will always commit crimes so why bother even having laws against anything or persecuting anyone for anything.

anyway, i imagine once the list comes out, there'll be a few people who'll say the list is a sham or there's no real proof or whatnot. i'd like to ask those people a small favor. when you post, could you please also include what jerseys or bats you own from players on the list? thx. ;)

rudy.

[bigjimsguitars]

King:

I own a Gagne Jersey and Bat, a Pair of Big Mac's Batting Gloves, a Canseco Batting Glove, as well as some Frank Thomas stuff (oops, he's not on the unofficial list).

I would like to point out that I don't collect because of the value or what it will be worth (yes, it's always nice to have stuff that appreciates), but rather because I like the stuff.

If my stuff becomes valuable down the road that will be wonderful, but again that is only a secondary consideration....

You only lose if you sell.....

[YankeeChowda]

dunno if anyone posted this yet... but heres the report...
www.mlb.com/mitchellreport

[bagbig]

Bagwell and Pujols are NOT on the real list.

[ChrisCavalier]

dunno if anyone posted this yet... but heres the report...
www.mlb.com/mitchellreport (http://www.mlb.com/mitchellreport)
Glad to see this posted. It appears some the names being circulated earlier weren't consistent with what was in the report. I think it shows the value of getting accurate information.

Sincerely,
Chris

[suave1477]

hot diggity, the report isn't even out yet and already the denials are comin! MLB PR would be proud. let's get a few others out of the way:

- "i thought it was flax oil!"
- "sure i ordered steroids, but i never actually used them. i just like receiving packages".
- "i accidentally sat on all of those needles!"

can't wait to see what randy hendricks whips up.



here here. people will always commit crimes so why bother even having laws against anything or persecuting anyone for anything.

anyway, i imagine once the list comes out, there'll be a few people who'll say the list is a sham or there's no real proof or whatnot. i'd like to ask those people a small favor. when you post, could you please also include what jerseys or bats you own from players on the list? thx. ;)

rudy.


Uuuum excuse me KingJammy, I am not sure if you purposely took my words out of context to make humor of it or to try to make a serious point.

But I will say this to the first comment qouted. I am not denying anything I am just mearly making a point. I know as well as everyone else does they took the stuff when it was shipped to there house and didnt accidently open up a package and by accident stuck themself with a needle, but we do live in America and last time I checked unless direct proof is given nothing else much can be done other then writing up a report.

To your second comment I am not saying we shouldnt have laws but I don't know if your aware of this but the Mitchell erport is not a law its just that, a report. A report of names of who we believe was invlolved, so can anyone be punished in a manner where it will make people think, change there ways, or out right be honest and say "hey from no on and forever we will place the game honestly" NO

[suave1477]

Well here so far is the most accurate reported list from the New York Daily News


Marvin Benard
Barry Bonds
Bobby Estelella
Jason Giambi
Jeremy Giambi
Benito Santiago
Gary Sheffield
Randy Velarde
Chris Donnels
Lenny Dykstra
David Segui (via a cancelled check from Segui to Kirk Radomski)
Larry Bigbie
Brian Roberts
Jack Cust
Tim Laker
Josias Manzanillo
Todd Hundley
Mark Carrion
Hal Morris
Matt Franco
Rondell White
Roger Clemens
Andy Pettitte
Chuck Knoblauch
Jason Grimsley
Greg Zaun
David Justice
Frank Santangelo
Glenallen Hill
Mo Vaughn
Denny Neagle
Ryan Franklin
Todd Williams
Phil Hiatt
Paul Lo Duca
Todd Pratt
Miguel Tejada
Kevin Young
Mike Lansing
Cody McKay
Kent Mercker
Adam Piatt
Paul Byrd
Troy Glaus
Jason Christiansen
Mike Stanton
Stephen Randolph
Jerry Hairston
Adam Riggs
Bart Miadich
Fernando Vina
Kevin Brown
Eric Gagne
Mike Bell
Matt Herges
Gary Bennett, Jr.
Jim Parque
Brendon Donnelly
Chad Allen
Jeff Williams
Howie Clark
Exavier Logan
Daniel Naulty
Rick Ankiel
David Bell
Jose Canseco
Jay Gibbons
Jason Grimsley
Jose Guillen
Jerry Hairston
Darren Holmes
Gary Matthews Jr.
John Rocker
Scott Schoenweiss
Ismael Valdez
Matt Williams
Steve Woodard

[TFig27]

Uuuum excuse me KingJammy, I am not sure if you purposely took my words out of context to make humor of it or to try to make a serious point.

But I will say this to the first comment qouted. I am not denying anything I am just mearly making a point. I know as well as everyone else does they took the stuff when it was shipped to there house and didnt accidently open up a package and by accident stuck themself with a needle, but we do live in America and last time I checked unless direct proof is given nothing else much can be done other then writing up a report.

To your second comment I am not saying we shouldnt have laws but I don't know if your aware of this but the Mitchell erport is not a law its just that, a report. A report of names of who we believe was invlolved, so can anyone be punished in a manner where it will make people think, change there ways, or out right be honest and say "hey from no on and forever we will place the game honestly" NO

Buy, it will change the player's opinion in the eye's of the fans and hall of fame voters. Also, even though this is only a report, it will have the affect of rewriting history and changing a players legacy.

[suave1477]

You think so huh????

If you want there is someone selling some great beachfront property here in a dessert real cheap. After that ill sell you some underwater property where it never rains

lmaooooo:D

[both-teams-played-hard]

If you want there is someone selling some great beachfront property here in a dessert real cheap.

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/1703/dessertpi8.jpg

[suave1477]

both teams play hard lmaoooooo thanks:D

[David]

A practical problem is owners still pay big contracts to players who use/used banned drugs, so the owners themselves create no disincentive to use drugs. In fact some might say these owners create the incentive.

[kingjammy24]

david,

players caught failing tests are suspended. i believe an owner and the rest of the team would care if a star player had to miss 2 weeks during a pennant race. secondly, if fans react negatively to players caught cheating then perhaps they're looking at a drop in revenue from things like merchandise and ticket sales. then again, giants fans still seem to like bonds to this day so who knows.

anyway, my 2 cents on some of the comments:

1) "the players on the list aren't exactly a surprise"

sure bonds and canseco are obvious given that they both admitted to taking steroids prior to the release of the mitchell report. however, garciaparra isn't a surprise? wally joyner? andy pettitte? mo vaughn? if those guys aren't a surprise, then how is it that their names weren't bandied about before? hindsight's always 20/20 right? i guess this is the point where the experts suddenly come out of the woodwork and say that they knew the whole time.

secondly, there's a difference between having a suspicion and having that suspicion confirmed with evidence. there's little effect from baseless rumors with people arguing over stats and head size. it's a different ballgame when you've got eyewitness testimony from roger clemens' trainer saying he personally injected clemens. saying "oh i always thought roger was on the juice" so this report is nothing new is irrelevant. the report does offer new info because it has factual evidence whereas before only hearsay existed.

call me naive but clemens was a surprise to me. then again, i found it odd when canseco's book came out and clemens kept saying canseco should've kept quiet. i guess i now know why clemens wanted canseco to keep his mouth shut. not exactly for the betterment of baseball and youth sports. clemens was probably sweating bullets.

2) value on game-used items

i think some collectors won't care and they'll continue to keep and collect juiced players while others will be disappointed and they'll sell parts of their collections and cease collecting juiced players. for those who collect for "value/investment", i think the report will have an immensely negative effect because their investment choices are driven by whether the player will eventually get into the HOF or not. i believe the mitchell report will have an effect on whether clemens gets into the hall. if you believe clemens is still a guaranteed HOF'er then explain to me why mcgwire is the only eligible 500 HR hitter who's not in the hall? do you truly believe that bonds is an automatic HOF'er at this point? palmeiro? sosa? before any steroid talks even began, palmeiro items fetched a good price because collectors felt he was an eventual HOF'er. as soon as the steroid talks started and he failed a test, his items plunged in value. who's interested in palmeiro gamers anymore? what are mcgwire gamers fetching now compared to 1998? conversely, ripken items are as valuable as they ever were.

rudy.

[kingjammy24]

You think so huh????

If you want there is someone selling some great beachfront property here in a dessert real cheap. After that ill sell you some underwater property where it never rains

lmaooooo:D

right..because mcgwire and palmiero haven't changed in the fans eyes in the least. their game-used items still fetch the premium they did a few years ago. as well, both of them are 500HR hitters and clearly they're automatic HOF'ers. woops looks like mcgwire's already had some trouble in that dept. clearly their steroid-related issues have had little effect on their legacies and HOF chances.

TFig27 is right.

rudy.

[suave1477]

KingJammy im not gonna go back and forth with you I will just say I disagree and leave it at that.

[Nnunnari]

This may be a shocker to some of you, but Pujols and Bagwell did take steroids even though they weren't in the Mitchell report. But really, who cares? Everybody did it, doesn't take away from how good they were.

[bigtruck260]

This may be a shocker to some of you, but Pujols and Bagwell did take steroids even though they weren't in the Mitchell report. But really, who cares? Everybody did it, doesn't take away from how good they were.

I wonder if attoneys are scouring sites like GUU, etc. to see if anyone makes blatant accusations. Do you have proof of this? If not, then it is only a fairy tale. If you do have proof, I am sure CNN or Fox would give you enough money to buy everything you ever wanted to decorate your office.

Dave

[frikativ54]

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/1703/dessertpi8.jpg
ROFLMAO! :D

[nomah!]

I really wish people would stop posting names NOT ON THE LIST as if they are guilty. Pujols? Bagwell? Nomar!?!? ;-)

These guys may or may not have--but the real list is bad enough. Let's not contribute to damaging more player reputations and people's GU & autograph collections.:mad:

[JETEFAN]

Is this really a shocker?......Dan Duquette ( former Red Sox GM ) could not justify paying Roger the money he wanted back in 1996-1997 to guy whose career was declining and was only hitting the low 90's on his fastball. All of a sudden he ends up in Toronto bulked up and wins 2 cy youngs? Look at his numbers in his last years in Boston:

1993: 11 - 14
1994: 9-7
1995: 10-5
1996: 10-13

record was 40-39 for the last 4 years in Boston, then he shows up in toronto with new body and goes 21-7 and 20-6 with a couple of cy youngs??

Clemens has been pretty consistant with his ERA during his career,(2-4) Wins and losses has a lot to due with run support! In 94 as you point out, He went 9-7, yet his ERA was 2.85, in the top 8 of his carrer!!!! 1997, one of the best seasons of his career, 21-7 and an ERA of 2.05!!! This comming one year BEFORE his alledged steroid use. Sour Grapes, Mitchell who works for the Red Sox was in my opinion the wrong person to carry out this investigation, shoud have been someone not associated with any team. Many players and teams over looked, and teams singled out...Just my humble opinion.

George

[cohibasmoker]

Looks like baseball's dirty little secret is now out in the open. Baseball has just two choices: Either end it now by aggressive drug testing or, let it continue and ruin what's left of the game. As I've said in previous threads, MLB wants all of their members to be positive role models. MLB has talked the talk now let's see if MLB can walk the walk.

I can't think of any "legitimate" business that allows it's members to sell, buy and use illegal substances except drug cartels.

As for the commish, he has to go. If asterisk's are to be placed in the record books, the commish should get one for his poor handling of the entire affair.

Jim

[suave1477]

Looks like baseball's dirty little secret is now out in the open. Baseball has just two choices: Either end it now by aggressive drug testing or, let it continue and ruin what's left of the game. As I've said in previous threads, MLB wants all of their members to be positive role models. MLB has talked the talk now let's see if MLB can walk the walk.
Jim

I would just like to add to this as far as MLB just ending that is impossible and to expect them to do that is asking a bit much because you could never completely control it.

But MLB could try too and inforce it in a way where extreme punishments get handed out if the player does not comply or tests positive.
Example - instead of suspending a guy 15 or 30 games (Which mind is absolutely nothing and is a complete joke if you ask me) But suspend them for a full season or even worse ban them from Baseball, sure at first its gonna hurt but in the long run the game will be ten times cleaner and more fans will believe in the game again

[TNTtoys]

But MLB could try too and inforce it in a way where extreme punishments get handed out if the player does not comply or tests positive.
Example - instead of suspending a guy 15 or 30 games (Which mind is absolutely nothing and is a complete joke if you ask me) But suspend them for a full season or even worse ban them from Baseball, sure at first its gonna hurt but in the long run the game will be ten times cleaner and more fans will believe in the game again
This has already been done... the current penalties are much harsher than the ones you have referenced. Here they are...


I. Penalties for steroids
A. Test results
— 1. First positive: 50 games
— 2. Second positive: 100 games
— 3. Third positive: Lifetime ban, subject to right to seek reinstatement after two years of suspension, with arbitral review of reinstatement decision.

B. Conviction for possession
— 1. First offense: 60-80 games
— 2. Second offense: 120 games to 1 year
— 3. Third offense: Lifetime ban, subject to right to seek reinstatement after two years of suspension, with arbitral review of reinstatement decision.

C. Conviction for distribution
— 1. First offense: 80-100 games
— 2. Second offense: Lifetime ban, subject to right to seek reinstatement after two years of suspension, with arbitral review of reinstatement decision.

[cohibasmoker]

Suave: I would just like to add to this as far as MLB just ending that is impossible and to expect them to do that is asking a bit much because you could never completely control it.


I disagree. Want to end it? No problem. It's really is quite simple.

-We'll say this, MLB will hire 10 members from this forum who have zero affiliation with MLB. We'll need a salary budget, a travel budget, a expense budget (materials) and a lab testing budget.

-We'll get a big drum and put all of the teams names into the drum. Once a week, we'll pull a name of a team from the drum and drop in on that team with 20 empty urine bottles.

-Ten (10) players would be randomly tested and they would have to give urine samples. Ten samples would be sent to a lab and the other ten samples would be locked in a safe just in case someone comes up "hot".

-Let the chips fall where they may. No, it's not a big deal at all. In reality, it's really a very simplistic task. What's makes the task difficult is MLB and the players union because neither want it to happen.


Jim