Marion Jones = Barry Bonds??

[33bird]

Both Balco Babies. The IFAA (?) just erased all of Marion Jones's Olympic medals. Boom! They're gone. Now, if Bonds is finally PROVEN guilty (everybody knows he is, just like everybody knew Marion was guilty before she finally confessed) why doesn't MLB do the same thing? It's as simple as removing his name from every sacred record that he cheated to get. Forget the asterisk, just remove his name from the record books. I know some nut is gonna say now: "Well, we got to do that to Gaylord Perry too then, because he used slippery elm pills to muck up the ball." I don't have a problem with that. It wasn't like he was breaking the laws of our country like Bonds and others were. I think that's more like stealing signs or doing what the Patriots were doing. Doing what you can to win, but not making yourself BIGGER, FASTER, AND STRONGER than the majority of players not cheating, and breaking the laws of our country at the same time. I don't think bonds juiced to win, but he did the needle to get the publicity Sosa and Mac were getting, to make more money and break the records of guys like Aaron, Ruth, and Maris who played the game right and without substances that made you look and play like King Kong. Just my 2 cents.
Greg

[kellsox]

I dislike Bonds like the next guy but you can't eliminate stats that were accumulated throughout his career. M Jones participated in an individual sport and it is much easier to strike her times from record books. With Bonds playing a team sport, if you took away his HR's, RBIs etc...do you take away team victories, runs scored by his teammates, pitcher's ERA's from opposing teams... among other stats? I think it is understood by fans that his accomplishments(along with other players from his era) were chemically aided.
k

[flaco1801]

individual sport??? since when was bonds a team player, the most selfish player that ever played the game.

[BoneRubbedBat]

I'm glad to see the other sports doing the right thing by negating the offenders tainted accomplishments. I think Bud will follow suit to save face for MLB.

[bigtruck260]

I dislike Bonds like the next guy but you can't eliminate stats that were accumulated throughout his career. M Jones participated in an individual sport and it is much easier to strike her times from record books. With Bonds playing a team sport, if you took away his HR's, RBIs etc...do you take away team victories, runs scored by his teammates, pitcher's ERA's from opposing teams... among other stats? I think it is understood by fans that his accomplishments(along with other players from his era) were chemically aided.
k

The unfortunate part about this fiasco is that the above statement has to be true. DO you take away runs scored from the players who were on base when Barry drove them in? DO you lower the ERA of guys who he hammered? What Marion Jones did is honorable, and it took courage...obviously she is remorseful. Some folks should follow her lead.

Dave

[33bird]

Nope. You don't have to go that far. You can't go that far. You just wipe out his individual records in the record books. That's all he cares about anyway. That's why he juiced.
Greg

[murderers_row]

...M Jones participated in an individual sport and it is much easier to strike her times from record books.

Wrong.

The members of all of Jones's winning relay teams have lost their medals, too.

[Bondsgloves]

MLB is at fault for turning a blind eye, they didn't test for this stuff. MLB knew this was going on and turned the other way, because it was making them millions. The managers knew, the trainers, the owners, the GM's the scouts, they all knew this was going on.
Were steroids against baseball rules? Did MLB test for steroids? Yes they were illegal, but are we going to wipe the records clear for all the players that took steroids, greenies, cocaine and other illegal drugs.
Major league baseball will not wipe out any of Bonds accomplishments. They didn't erase jose canseco's 40/40 or MVO
Take away Sosa's MVP
Palmeiro's accomplishments
Do you think Rickey Henderson was clean? he played in his 40's and he was associated with the A's of the late 80's early 90"s.
Etc.

So if it comes out Clemens was on the juice (of course he was), are we going to wipe out his records?

The funny thing is that everyone is hoping AROD breaks the record, what a joke. AROD is probably on some sort of enhancement as well (then what).

Sorry but this is sports of this ERA, sports will never be clean again. Track & field is the most heavily tested yet 99% of them test clean yet they are on some undectable steroid Marion Jones tested clean during the olympics no one would ever of known if someone didn't snitch. Lance Armstrong, Holyfield, aall sports have been chemically enhanced.

[aeneas01]

gonna rid the baseball record books of steroid users, starting with bonds? and then what? finish up with baseball and then head on over to the nfl record books? perhaps start by stripping the '74-'79 steelers of their lombardi trophies?

btw, nice post bondsgloves....

[mwbosoxfan]

If you touch one record in the record books, be prepared to open the flood gates. Just the thought of more players being exposed in the near future makes me sick to my stomach. Unfortunately, there will be a period of time that will forever be known as the steroid era. You can't change what has already been done. Baseball needs to adopt stricter policies and actively explore possibilities of new testing technologies for HGH, and then move on past this era.

Jason Giambi admitted to the grand jury that he used steroids. He also acknowledged in a pathetic apology to the public that he used them (I do hold Giambi in much higher regard than Bonds, mainly because of his apology, no matter how pathetic it was). He also hit 2 homeruns in Game 7 of the 2003 ALCS. He is a cheater the same as Bonds. I, as much as anybody, would love to have those 2 runs removed. Aaron "f*****g" Boone should have never had his chance in the 11th. But, you just can't do it, no matter what you learn after the fact.

[yanks12025]

He also hit 2 homeruns in Game 7 of the 2003 ALCS. He is a cheater the same as Bonds. I, as much as anybody, would love to have those 2 runs removed. Aaron "f*****g" Boone should have never had his chance in the 11th. But, you just can't do it, no matter what you learn after the fact.[/quote]


Ok lets go with this, i'm not saying he ever took steroids but what would you do if it came out that Big papi took steroids. Then we can take your 2004 ring away because big papi was a big part in that.

[cohibasmoker]

MLB is at fault for turning a blind eye, they didn't test for this stuff. MLB knew this was going on and turned the other way, because it was making them millions. The managers knew, the trainers, the owners, the GM's the scouts, they all knew this was going on.
Were steroids against baseball rules? Did MLB test for steroids? Yes they were illegal, but are we going to wipe the records clear for all the players that took steroids, greenies, cocaine and other illegal drugs.
Major league baseball will not wipe out any of Bonds accomplishments. They didn't erase jose canseco's 40/40 or MVO
Take away Sosa's MVP
Palmeiro's accomplishments
Do you think Rickey Henderson was clean? he played in his 40's and he was associated with the A's of the late 80's early 90"s.
Etc.

So if it comes out Clemens was on the juice (of course he was), are we going to wipe out his records?

The funny thing is that everyone is hoping AROD breaks the record, what a joke. AROD is probably on some sort of enhancement as well (then what).

Sorry but this is sports of this ERA, sports will never be clean again. Track & field is the most heavily tested yet 99% of them test clean yet they are on some undectable steroid Marion Jones tested clean during the olympics no one would ever of known if someone didn't snitch. Lance Armstrong, Holyfield, aall sports have been chemically enhanced.

I agree with most of what you say EXCEPT the part, "this is sports of this ERA". A small percentage of MLB players cheated and it isn't fair to include all of the players into this category because it just isn't so. Let's not become so apathetic in our thinking that because a few took illegal drugs - everyone must have so it's OK to condone the behavior.

MLB has a big problem and they had better address it or they will damage the game forever. The way I see it, if adequate evidence is submitted against Bonds, and other players that they used the juice, and MLB knew and did nothing about it, whoever used it and whoever covered it up, including the commissioner, I say let the chips fall where they may.

MLB is a company just like every company in this Country and just like everyone else, they are subject to the same laws. Would IBM allow some employees to use illegal drugs because these "special" employees are producing better than others? I think not.

One final thought on MLB, I am tired of their public service annoucements on steroid use and how players should be positive role models. To me, it's all smoking mirrors unless they set an example for all to see.

Jim

[grandpahoo]

The focus on steroids and HGH in MLB cracks me up. Maybe I'm just cynical, but I'd be willing to bet that the percentage of NFL players who use performance enhancing drugs is astronomical.

[David]

I'm not speculating at cause of death, but if it turns out that Joe Kennedy's death was steroids related, players might pause to think.

A lot of the steroids and related drugs are not made by pharmacists, doctors or biochemists, but the equivalent of meth lab operators. A federal bust of a home showed the homemade drugs being stored unprotected in the bathtub and kitchen sink. And this is what athletes are putting into their body.

[mwbosoxfan]

Ok lets go with this, i'm not saying he ever took steroids but what would you do if it came out that Big papi took steroids. Then we can take your 2004 ring away because big papi was a big part in that.

I think you missed my point. I'm saying that there is nothing that can be done. While I think it stinks and I think that cheaters tarnish the game, there isn't anything you can do after the fact. My premise is based on the fact the some want to remove Bonds from the record books. My point is that you can't selectively go in and remove some records and not others. Giambi was an admitted user long before Bonds, and you can't go in and take Giambi's 2 HR's off the board and award the Red Sox the 2003 ALCS Championship. Although, they probably deserve it based on the effect of the "cheaters" premise.

And yes, if it did come out that Manny or Papi was using during the 2004 season, I do think it would diminish to a great degree their World Series Championship.

[kingjammy24]

Do you think Rickey Henderson was clean? he played in his 40's and he was associated with the A's of the late 80's early 90"s.

so using this logic, i guess you believe nolan ryan and julio franco also juiced it? both of them played into their 40s and both played on the 1993 rangers team with canseco, palmeiro, gonzalez, and rodriguez. david wells, schilling, and biggio also played into their 40s.

as he aged, rickey's stats and performance noticeably declined, unlike bonds.

rudy.

[David]

You can selectively remove stats if you know the player illegally cheated to get them. If the player is proven guilty, it's neither here nor there whether you can prove a different case against different players. If there are 10 cat burglars and the DA has damning evidence against only 2, he doesn't dismiss all 10 cases. He proceeds with the 2 cases he has damning evidence. That one player can get away murder doesn't mean everyone should get away with it.

[cohibasmoker]

I think you missed my point. I'm saying that there is nothing that can be done. While I think it stinks and I think that cheaters tarnish the game, there isn't anything you can do after the fact. My premise is based on the fact the some want to remove Bonds from the record books. My point is that you can't selectively go in and remove some records and not others. Giambi was an admitted user long before Bonds, and you can't go in and take Giambi's 2 HR's off the board and award the Red Sox the 2003 ALCS Championship. Although, they probably deserve it based on the effect of the "cheaters" premise.

And yes, if it did come out that Manny or Papi was using during the 2004 season, I do think it would diminish to a great degree their World Series Championship.

I totally agree with you. Everyone has to be treated equally and fairly - no exceptions. If evidence proves that a player used steroids and they did not have a medical reason for using them, oh well.

Maybe and I stress "maybe", the main problem facing MLB today is that some of the biggest names in the game "may" be implicated. If this is true, MLB has a serious public relations problem. No-one can convince me that MLB actually cares about the game nor their fans.

Jim

[mwbosoxfan]

You can selectively remove stats if you know the player illegally cheated to get them. If the player is proven guilty, it's neither here nor there whether you can prove a different case against different players. If there are 10 cat burglars and the DA has damning evidence against only 2, he doesn't dismiss all 10 cases. He proceeds with the 2 cases he has damning evidence. That one player can get away murder doesn't mean everyone should get away with it.

I'm not much of a debater, so bear with me here. But, I'm assuming from your cat burglar illustration that all of their crimes or capers are all somehow interrelated? Because everthing in baseball has a cause and effect relationship. If you selectively remove HR's from the record book, what happens to the pitcher's records who served them up?

Not to beat this 2003 ALCS with Giambi into the ground (and yes, I am scarred for life), but he is guilty as charged. He may not have a grand jury perjury charge hanging over his head, but his baseball "crimes" are just as serious as anyone else who affected the outcome of games by using PED's.

Marion Jones was stripped of her medals and so were her teammates according to what someone else wrote earlier on this thread. I assume the next in line were awarded their respective medals and moved up in place. So with that logic in place, since Giambi has admitted he used (same as convicted), the 2 HR's from Game 7 of the 2003 ALCS shall be stricken from the records. The Red Sox are now declared the ALCS Champions, and they have to play the Marlins on a Play Station II 2003 version of Slugfest, which I have done and know for a fact that the Red Sox won. Now, the disheartening thing is that Josh Beckett has to give up his MVP award and give it to Pedro Martinez. Holly Crap!

The point is that you can't go re-writing the record books in baseball. Everything in the books balance. Maybe...and I say maybe with much skepticism, that maybe the only thing would be to put asterisks by proven tainted records. Good luck, because before it is all said and done, for a pretty good period of time the whole darn book might be an asterisk.

[yanks12025]

I want to add something on your statements about his 2 home runs. Lets say he never hit those 2 home runs, we dont know what could have happened. Yankees could have come back in the 9th, red sox's could have won(YEAH RIGHT), maybe the red sox's never win the world series in 2004 or 2007. We don't know?

[David]

With Marion Jones, nearly all track officials say you have to remove here personal records/results/medals for events where she cheated. However, there is active debate with what you do with the other runners and relays. For example, in an individual race where Jones won, some would say the silver medals should move up to the gold, while others say the gold she be left vacant. With relays, some say the relay order should stand, while others say the whole team should be removed.

Notice that, while there is debate over how to deal with the interrelations of other athletes and teams, there is unanimity amongst the debaters that Jones should not be allowed to keep her wins and records. While they know that any solution will be imperfect, they know the biggest imperfection would be if a proven drug user was allowed to keep her wins, records and medals.

[mwbosoxfan]

I want to add something on your statements about his 2 home runs. Lets say he never hit those 2 home runs, we dont know what could have happened. Yankees could have come back in the 9th, red sox's could have won(YEAH RIGHT), maybe the red sox's never win the world series in 2004 or 2007. We don't know?

You're making my point. YOU CAN'T GO BACK AND UNDO WHAT HAS ALREADY BEEN DONE!! To with what certainty and to what degree did Giambi's use of PED's help him hit those 2 HR's? I can't tell you. Nobody can. Did he cheat to gain an advantage? Probably. Did they help him hit homeruns? Probably. Those 2 HR's? WE DON'T KNOW! So you, me, or even Bud Selig sure as heck can't go pull them from the records. Maybe put a better way is that you can't change history, you can only quanitify it. What you just described is why we can't go back.

I'm using Giambi's situation similar to Bond's. In that while we think without a "Shadow" of a doubt that Bonds used PED's, we know Giambi actually did. So, if you eliminate Barry's records from baseball once convicted, you have to follow suite everywhere else that train takes you. Savvy?

[mwbosoxfan]

Notice that, while there is debate over how to deal with the interrelations of other athletes and teams, there is unanimity amongst the debaters that Jones should not be allowed to keep her wins and records. While they know that any solution will be imperfect, they know the biggest imperfection would be if a proven drug user was allowed to keep her wins, records and medals.

David, that is an excellent point, seriously. Everything in baseball scorekeeping virtually balances with each other, and basically all the stats and records are generated from the scorekeeping. So, I don't have a solution either. You may have just swayed me to the other side. I think we should strip Giambi's HR's and get the Red Sox another World Series Championship!

[yanks12025]

I say with bonds stats that we wipe them clear out of records, meaning he still has his numbers but hes not on the homer list, rbi's list, none of these. I think this is how we should do it.

[Carlevv]

If Barry Bonds hit 780 HR's ill guess that at least 500 of those pitchers were also on something. If it wasnt steroids it was amphetimine or painkiller. 500 may be a low number by the way.

[David]

Actually, there is a somewhat (I said somewhat) comparable situation in sprints in track. For a race to count as a World's Record, the recorded wind speed at race time has to be below the a certain amount. They actually have someone measuring the wind speed before every race. If the back wind is too fast, the race is perfectly legal, the 1-2-3 sprinters get their medals and no one's considered a cheater. However, there can be no World's Record. So, in track and field, allowing a race with the fastest ever time ever recorded to stand but not listing the time as the World's Record is common.