Why does this Packers jersey have custom tags from L.A.?

[both-teams-played-hard]

http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-86-Green-Bay-Packers-Game-Worn-Used-Jersey_W0QQitemZ330189067996QQihZ014QQcategoryZ868 29QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Not at all am I doubting this shirt's authenticity. Looks nice. The Sand Knit tags appear to be from the late 60s-early 70s. Beautiful durene. But why in the world would there be custom tags from a Los Angeles distributor (Frederick's of Culver City)? Was there a movie from this era that featured the Packers. Any scenes from the "Paper Lion" against the Pack? Too late to be from SB I (played in L.A.). What does this Green Bay jersey have to do with Los Angeles? Any guesses are appreciated!

[beantown]

Hello....BTPH....I am the one selling this jersey on Ebay and that tagging has become a mystery. I initally had the same thoughts as you and saw this listing on the MEARS website...

http://www.mearsonline.com/forsale/item/?id=305

Believe it or not, Lou Lampson caught the fact that this jersey could not be from the late 1960's, due to the fact that the jersey has tag which state the Packers are in the National Football Conference (NFC), which was formulated after the merger of the AFL-NFL in 1970. Which is why I listed the jersey as a c. 1970 jersey. Also, I have spoken with Troy from MEARS and they are attemepting to contact the purchaser of the Packers jersey they sold and inform them of the mis-information on their original COA. Hope this helps....

[jdr3]

Hey Beantown,

A few months ago you posted some nice pics of jerseys from the football hall of fame. They are not coming up at this time-could you repost some please? Especially the one of the Charley Taylor jersey?

Thanks,

Jim

[beantown]

jdr3...here you go...also some Packers photos from the HOF, for a comparison to the one I have on Ebay now....

[jdr3]

Thank you!

[both-teams-played-hard]

Hello....BTPH....I am the one selling this jersey on Ebay and that tagging has become a mystery. I initally had the same thoughts as you and saw this listing on the MEARS website...

http://www.mearsonline.com/forsale/item/?id=305

Believe it or not, Lou Lampson caught the fact that this jersey could not be from the late 1960's, due to the fact that the jersey has tag which state the Packers are in the National Football Conference (NFC), which was formulated after the merger of the AFL-NFL in 1970. Which is why I listed the jersey as a c. 1970 jersey. Also, I have spoken with Troy from MEARS and they are attemepting to contact the purchaser of the Packers jersey they sold and inform them of the mis-information on their original COA. Hope this helps....

Thanks for the information, but it doesn't help. The MEARS information is wrong. "Frederick's of Hollywood"? Fredericks in Culver is something different. Frederick (Hollywood) is a first name. They don't never, haven't, won't, will not ever, ever, ever sell, customize or distribute football jerseys.
William Fredericks( Culver City) was a long-time Los Angeles sporting goods dealer. If an "authenticator" is going to make this blatant and laughable an error; then I will consider ALL of the surrounding data as bumpkus.
Beantown
Your jersey is nice. I still would like to know why the Packers would need a West Coast distributor? The MEARS example adds credence to your shirt...but "Frederick's of Hollywood"? Yes, I will spare readers any photo-shop creation.
Yes the NFC, puts it at no later than 1970. Well after, any GB early SB appearances. Just very curious. "West coast distributor" DOES NOT cut it for me. Was there a movie with the Packers from this era?

[beantown]

BTPH...I don't have any answers as to why the Fredericks tag is on the jersey...pure speculation, but is it possible the jersey is a carry over from the 1960's and later Sand Knit tags were added by the Packers to have uniformity with the new style tags after the AFL-NFL merger???

[cohibasmoker]

http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-86-Green-Bay-Packers-Game-Worn-Used-Jersey_W0QQitemZ330189067996QQihZ014QQcategoryZ868 29QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Not at all am I doubting this shirt's authenticity. Looks nice. The Sand Knit tags appear to be from the late 60s-early 70s. Beautiful durene. But why in the world would there be custom tags from a Los Angeles distributor (Frederick's of Culver City)? Was there a movie from this era that featured the Packers. Any scenes from the "Paper Lion" against the Pack? Too late to be from SB I (played in L.A.). What does this Green Bay jersey have to do with Los Angeles? Any guesses are appreciated!

BTPH, Was 1970 the first year all of the NFL teams started wearing names on the back of their jerseys?

And, the first thing that caught my eye was the little white tag in the collar. I checked my vintage Sand-knit jerseys and none of them have that tiny flag tag denoting the size of the jersey. You probably have owned and seen way more Sand-knit jerseys that I but let me ask you, do any of your Sand-knit jerseys have a similar tag?

Jim

[both-teams-played-hard]

Beantown
I know a couple of Packers collectors who have contacted you about the jersey....they STILL want it! They should...it is an absolute football relic! I was just curious as to why a jersey would go from Wisconsin to California back to Wisconsin? I feel MEARS' example of a road white helps your cause. C'mon... Frederick's of Hollywood...a jersey distributor? That's comedy with comic value. Its a mistake...but it is bad form to assume.
I hope you make a grip on this jersey. It's super nice and I would bid if I could afford it.
Frederick's sells drawers and Fredericks used to sell sporting goods.

Back to the original question:
Why would the Packers use a L.A. distributor in 1970?

[both-teams-played-hard]

BTPH, Was 1970 the first year all of the NFL teams started wearing names on the back of their jerseys?

And, the first thing that caught my eye was the little white tag in the collar. I checked my vintage Sand-knit jerseys and none of them have that tiny flag tag denoting the size of the jersey. You probably have owned and seen way more Sand-knit jerseys that I but let me ask you, do any of your Sand-knit jerseys have a similar tag?

Jim
I have seen the small size flag tag in 60s-70s-80s Packers jerseys. So, that is right on. Some teams added NOBs in 1970, not sure about the Packers.

[beantown]

Beantown
I know a couple of Packers collectors who have contacted you about the jersey....they STILL want it! They should...it is an absolute football relic! I was just curious as to why a jersey would go from Wisconsin to California back to Wisconsin? I feel MEARS' example of a road white helps your cause. C'mon... Frederick's of Hollywood...a jersey distributor? That's comedy with comic value. Its a mistake...but it is bad form to assume.
I hope you make a grip on this jersey. It's super nice and I would bid if I could afford it.
Frederick's sells drawers and Fredericks used to sell sporting goods.

Back to the original question:
Why would the Packers use a L.A. distributor in 1970?

BTPH....you bring up a lot of good points/questions...I simply dont have any answers....who know's what happened 35+ years ago...I hope this jersey ends up in the hands of a serious Packers collector as that's where this belongs. Who has access to the MEARS website, where they broke down the history of the Packers uniform? Maybe that can help?

[G1X]

BTPH,
That information is very educational and helpful in clarifying the difference between Fredericks Sporting Goods and Frederick's of Hollywood. Thanks so much. From the tagging, the jersey appears to be circa 1970 to 1972 based on the following:
1. Before 1970, the small Sand Knit "medal" logo had a black ball with the top part of the metal being gold. The number of the size was gold stitching, and there were 3 lines of laundry instructions that were underlined. See first photo below of pre-1970 white Detroit Lions durene jersey.
2. Somewhere around 1970 or 1971, they reversed the thread color on the medal (gold ball with the top part of the medal being black) and the number of the size was changed to black stitching. See second photo of early 1970s purple Minnesota Vikings durene jersey (note that there is no "exclusive" tag) and third photo of a circa 1972/73 blue Detroit Lions durene jersey (example of tagging on jerseys with crotchpiece).
3. Circa 1972 or 1973, the tagging changed again. There were now 4 lines of laundry instructions that were no longer underlined. See fourth photo of 1973/1974 blue Detroit Lions durene jersey.

beantown,
I have never seen an example of teams inserting tags back in that era. Not to say that it is not possible, but it would be surprising as things were a lot diferent back then. Of the durene jerseys in my collection and the ones I have seen over the years, the only alterations I have observed on 1960s Sand Knit durene jerseys that were recycled for use in the nameplate era was the slight lowering of the back numbers to make room for the nameplate.

Jim,
I am assuming that the Charley Taylor jersey is from his last years in DC. I seem to recall the 'Skins switching to this particular number style around 1976 (Taylor was injured in their first preseason game that year at Atlanta and missed the season), and then he played one more year (1977) before retiring. Please let me know if you have ever seen a 1976 or 1977 Washington jersey with:
1. This particular style of Sand Knit tagging.
2. Name screened directly on the back of the jersey.

Thanks!

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

[G1X]

P.S. All NFC teams added name-on-back in 1970.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

[beantown]

G1X...hello...the reason I thought it maybe a carry over 1960's jersey is from the red size 48 flag tag in the neck...wasn't that predominatly there on 1960's Packers jerseys? Would the red size flag tag in the neck be there for a 1970 or later Packers jersey?

[G1X]

beantown,

I have never had a Packers durene jersey from the early 1970s, so I cannot say for certain. According to Troy Kinunen's extensive Packers jersey article in Sports Collectors Digest earlier this year, the 1970 Packers durene jerseys did have the red size flag tag in the neck.

As for the discussion on the Fredericks tagging, I can think of several plausible scenarios of how Green Bay could end up having a store in California supply their uniforms. It could have been a situation where someone with the team had ties (friend, family, etc.) with Fredericks, or perhaps the person responsible for the orders was previously employed by the Rams or another team that used Fredericks. Back then, football wasn't a full-time job, so maybe a Packers employee (or even a player or former player) had an off-season job as a sales rep for Fredericks.

This might be something that we will never know.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

[both-teams-played-hard]

As for the discussion on the Fredericks tagging, I can think of several plausible scenarios of how Green Bay could end up having a store in California supply their uniforms. It could have been a situation where someone with the team had ties (friend, family, etc.) with Fredericks, or perhaps the person responsible for the orders was previously employed by the Rams or another team that used Fredericks. Back then, football wasn't a full-time job, so maybe a Packers employee (or even a player or former player) had an off-season job as a sales rep for Fredericks.

This might be something that we will never know.


Mark
Your scenarios sound possible. Maybe somone knows who supplied the Packers jerseys in the mid 60s and mid 70s. These answers may point to some other clues.

[cohibasmoker]

Hello guys. As I sit here with a cup of coffee reading all of the threads on this particular jersey, I realize that the attached threads are what this website is all about - a exchange of information between collector's. No bitching, no moaning and no personal attacks against other forum members.

Jim

[Vintagedeputy]

I just started reading this thread - great discussion!

Could the jersey have been taken on the road to play an L.A. team and them maybe was torn or damaged somewhere and was taken to the Fredericks store for repair?

Perhaps the team was short a jersey and went to that store and had one made for game use?

just guessing.....

Jim

[beantown]

I have examined this jersey again to see if I could find anything else that may help in figuring this jersey out...on the Fredericks tag are the hand written letters "BC"....anyone might know what that means?

[ekin27]

Just A Guess!!
In 1973 Ernest Borgnine played Vince Lombardi in a TV Movie Called "Legend In Granite".
It profiled Lombardi's career from college to his days leading the Pack to glory.
Actors played members of the 60's Packers.
Given this is a 60's looking jersey with early 70's tagging plus a tag from a California company that supplied sporting goods to movies perhaps this is a Boyd Dowler prop from this movie.
Again...Just a guess.
Jack

[cohibasmoker]

Just A Guess!!
In 1973 Ernest Borgnine played Vince Lombardi in a TV Movie Called "Legend In Granite".
It profiled Lombardi's career from college to his days leading the Pack to glory.
Actors played members of the 60's Packers.
Given this is a 60's looking jersey with early 70's tagging plus a tag from a California company that supplied sporting goods to movies perhaps this is a Boyd Dowler prop from this movie.
Again...Just a guess.
Jack

Wow, that is a very interesting thread. I wonder if a video is available?

[both-teams-played-hard]

Just A Guess!!
In 1973 Ernest Borgnine played Vince Lombardi in a TV Movie Called "Legend In Granite".
It profiled Lombardi's career from college to his days leading the Pack to glory.
Actors played members of the 60's Packers.
Given this is a 60's looking jersey with early 70's tagging plus a tag from a California company that supplied sporting goods to movies perhaps this is a Boyd Dowler prop from this movie.
Again...Just a guess.
Jack
Ekin
O.K. man, how did you read my mind?
On my desk, are the words: Legend in Granite. I did this research last night. There is no video or dvd available. I could go to the Museum of TV and radio. You can schedule a viewing in there viewing room, of anything that has ever aired on network television. I am enjoying this discussion, but taking a four mile trip (40 minutes in L.A. traffic) is a commitment. MEARS sold a road white. Beantown has a home green. We'd have to see the movie to rate the production value. Two sets of jerseys for a TV movie? How many football "action" scenes are there? Ekin- do you have information that William Fredericks Company supplied movie production companies? If so, that would help. Remember readers- this movie thing is pure speculation. As it stands: MEARS' jersey and Beantown's jersey are BOTH gamers. Even if they were used in a movie, they could have quite possibly been recycled from the team. I have seen some Rams jerseys distributed by Fredericks, and some early 70s Pro Bowl jerseys (when the game was played in L.A. for a few years). Has anyone seen any other NFL jerseys or non-west coast teams, or other Packers jerseys with Fredericks tags?

[ekin27]

Guys,

I am sorry about the way I worded my post. I have no knowledge of Fredericks supplying movies.

It makes no sense why the Packers based in Green Bay would be buying Sand Knit jerseys made in Berlin Wi. from a Culver City Ca. distributor.

Googled Packer Movies and found the Legend in Granite name and looked it up on imdb.com. It listed actors who portrayed players and the rest is a guess.

My apologies if my previous post made it look I had knowledge of this dealer supplying movies.

Pure Speculation on my part.

Jack

[gwh11]

In an earlier post Mark (Hayne) provided some good information regarding early '70s Sand Knit tagging. I'd like to elaborate a little further regarding Packers jersey tagging.

The dual Sand Knit tagging on this Packers jersey is generally found on post-1970 shirts. Packers jerseys from 1970 sported only the size/washing instrctions tag only, and not the "exclusive" tag.

Also, someone had asked about the red size tag in the collar. You will find Packers jerseys through the mid-'70s with this tag. I'm still trying to find solid information re: the Fredericks Co. connection w/that tag.

Something to consider: In the early part of the 1973 preseason (late July-early August), the Packers carried two tight ends on the roster that were issued number 86. One of them, Mike Donohoe, made the team for the '73 regular season. The other had his number switched to 82 after the first preseason game vs. the Bears and was cut before the regular season began. He was a rookie free agent named Bob Christiansen (B.C.?).

Does this jersey have any sign that a nameplate was ever affixed? That info would help.

The Packers played an intra-squad scrimmage game in late July of '73. The jerseys they wore in this game did not have nameplates attached, and some players wore durene jerseys like this in the game, along with mesh. The possibility exists that Christiansen wore this jersey in that game. He was still assigned 86 for the first preseason game, but did not catch a pass, although he could've seen some action.

My guess is that this was a '71 or '72 stock jersey issued to Christiansen for '73 training camp through the beginning of the '73 preseason.

Guy

[beantown]

In an earlier post Mark (Hayne) provided some good information regarding early '70s Sand Knit tagging. I'd like to elaborate a little further regarding Packers jersey tagging.

The dual Sand Knit tagging on this Packers jersey is generally found on post-1970 shirts. Packers jerseys from 1970 sported only the size/washing instrctions tag only, and not the "exclusive" tag.

Also, someone had asked about the red size tag in the collar. You will find Packers jerseys through the mid-'70s with this tag. I'm still trying to find solid information re: the Fredericks Co. connection w/that tag.

Something to consider: In the early part of the 1973 preseason (late July-early August), the Packers carried two tight ends on the roster that were issued number 86. One of them, Mike Donohoe, made the team for the '73 regular season. The other had his number switched to 82 after the first preseason game vs. the Bears and was cut before the regular season began. He was a rookie free agent named Bob Christiansen (B.C.?).

Does this jersey have any sign that a nameplate was ever affixed? That info would help.

The Packers played an intra-squad scrimmage game in late July of '73. The jerseys they wore in this game did not have nameplates attached, and some players wore durene jerseys like this in the game, along with mesh. The possibility exists that Christiansen wore this jersey in that game. He was still assigned 86 for the first preseason game, but did not catch a pass, although he could've seen some action.

My guess is that this was a '71 or '72 stock jersey issued to Christiansen for '73 training camp through the beginning of the '73 preseason.

Guy


Guy....some great information! As for your inquiry if the jersey ever had a nameplate afffixed, there is no evidence/damage to the jersey indicating one was ever applied....

[cjw]

same fredericks tagging on this pro bowl jersey (post # 74)\
http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=12255&page=8

[both-teams-played-hard]

same fredericks tagging on this pro bowl jersey (post # 74)\
http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=12255&page=8

Thanks for pointing this out. Easy explanation. 1979 Pro Bowl played in Los Angeles. Still would like to know the Packers/Fredericks connection.

[both-teams-played-hard]

any other information?

[commando]

any other information?

Hey, it's only been four years. Don't rush us.

[cohibasmoker]

Another Frederick's Packers jersey has shown-up on eBay.

Looks like early to mid-1970's Sand-Knit tagging (Black ribbon and black size and no lines under the washing instructions) and in looking at the back of the jersey, there doesn't appear to be enough spacing between the collar and numbers to accommodate a nameplate.

It's interesting that this is the 2nd Packers jersey to show-up with Frederick's tagging and that's why I linked this jersey to our earlier discussions.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/330697970878?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

Jim

flaa1a@comcast.net

[genius]

Thanks for pointing this out. Easy explanation. 1979 Pro Bowl played in Los Angeles. Still would like to know the Packers/Fredericks connection.

I don't think that Greenwood Pro Bowl jersey is from 1979. Those jerseys look like the Sand Knit, one-tone-number style worn also in 1980 in Honolulu: http://www.mmbolding.com/BSR/The_1979_Pro_Bowl.htm

More likely the jersey was from the Seattle Pro Bowl in January 1977 (Greenwood made the team):

http://www.mmbolding.com/BSR/The_1977_Pro_Bowl.htm

[gwh11]

Another Frederick's Packers jersey has shown-up on eBay.

Looks like early to mid-1970's Sand-Knit tagging (Black ribbon and black size and no lines under the washing instructions) and in looking at the back of the jersey, there doesn't appear to be enough spacing between the collar and numbers to accommodate a nameplate.

It's interesting that this is the 2nd Packers jersey to show-up with Frederick's tagging and that's why I linked this jersey to our earlier discussions.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/330697970878?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

Jim

flaa1a@comcast.net
Jim,
This jersey is a 1974 game issued Dave Pureifory jersey. I had sold this on ebay some months ago, and made it clear in my description that I could not find evidence that it saw any game action. I also included the nameplate that would've gone on the back (the plate would've covered part of the transverse seam on the back, so there was enough room), but I don't know what the seller did with that. 1973 was the last year the Packers utilized these 3/4" sleeved durenes for certain cold-weather games. Before the '74 season, the team had durene jerseys made in anticipation of using them later in the season as they had done previously. However, they stuck with the short-sleeved mesh jerseys for the entire year, and beyond. In the '80s they used short-sleeved durene's from time to time.
-Guy

[gwh11]

Forgot to add this bit of info:
One might (should) ask "Why couldn't this jersey have been used in 1973, when they were still using the durenes, or even earlier?"
The answer is in the font style.
The classic "diamond" 5 font changed after 1973, and was flattened out, so to speak. The diamond 5's were brought back again in 1995.
The Sandknit tagging is appropriate for a 1974 Packers jersey.
I also have a theory on the Frederick's tag, which I'll get to shortly.
-Guy

[gwh11]

These two photos illustrate the changes to the #5 font between 1973 and 1974. Compare the 5 on Tom MacLeod's jersey in the 1973 photo with the 5 on Larry McCarren's jersey in the 1974 shot.
-Guy

[both-teams-played-hard]

Informative thread.
New members should read this...