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whatupyos
11-12-2007, 11:15 PM
So I want to pose this question and am open to how you all feel. What do you think about obtaining game used pieces that you know to be stolen? After the OJ Simpson memorabilia sting I have learned two of the people involved were busted for receiving stolen property at one point in time. Personally I couldn't obtain a piece if I knew the item to be stolen from the player or another collector. If that doesn't bother you, thats totally cool, I respect that I'm just wondering what you think.

Aaron

byergo
11-12-2007, 11:34 PM
There is nothing "cool" or to be respected about knowingly harboring stolen property. It makes you a criminal that should be locked up. Unethical, immoral, illegal period.

Yankwood
11-12-2007, 11:46 PM
There is nothing "cool" or to be respected about knowingly harboring stolen property. It makes you a criminal that should be locked up. Unethical, immoral, illegal period.How much of this stuff that we as a collecting community now own can we safely say is NOT stolen? I have not personally stolen anything I own, but most of it might be. I really can't say...

bigjimsguitars
11-13-2007, 12:07 AM
I once owned a Jose Canseco Bat (Rawlings Big Stick) that I tried to get him to sign at Angels Stadium and he grabbed it out of my hands and said it was stolen from him...

I explained how a got it and he reluctantly gave it back to me, but without signing it.

Wasn't sure what to believe as I bought it from a SCD advertised auction back in around 1992...

I've since sold the bat....

If I knew something was stolen I would want no part of it...but one does have to wonder how much of what we collect is pilfered from the club house?

whatupyos
11-13-2007, 12:12 AM
Byergo...perhaps cool was the wrong word to use, I was just trying to pose my question so as to let others know that I'm not here to judge them if they happen to disagree with me. It bothers me that there are people who obtain stuff that is known to be stolen. I think its wrong personally. It also makes me wonder when you see people say that an item was obtained through an impecable source, who that impecable source might be? I would think that if it was obtained through a contact that in MLB/team that the item would come with a team LOA...if it doesn't then I wonder if it is taken without consent? I remember one thread a while back when someone said that a team has cameras in the clubhouse to deter sticky fingers. I know if I was a player I'd be peeved if some how, my bats/jerseys/whatever was mysteriously vanishing into thin air.

OaklandAsFan
11-13-2007, 01:08 AM
How much of this stuff that we as a collecting community now own can we safely say is NOT stolen? I have not personally stolen anything I own, but most of it might be. I really can't say...


I can honestly say that 100% of my collection is not stolen since 95% of it was handed to me by the player themselves and the other 5% were gotten from the bat boys after games when they broke.

thomecollector
11-13-2007, 05:18 AM
I can honestly say that 100% of my collection is not stolen since 95% of it was handed to me by the player themselves and the other 5% were gotten from the bat boys after games when they broke.
Realistictly, probably 60% of the game used out there was probably obtained under questionable circumstances. Before Stiener,etc. A lot of these guys probably had an insider who aquired (stole? ) things out of the clubhouse. I personally have never knowingly bought anything that I knew was hot. But, who's to say that bat, or glove you bought wasn't originally stolen. Think about it. There is much more demand than supply ,isn't there? Just my 2 cents.:D

bigtime59
11-13-2007, 08:43 AM
Or, what do you do when you find out--after the fact--something you've purchased was stolen?

ironmanfan
11-13-2007, 09:12 AM
Or, what do you do when you find out--after the fact--something you've purchased was stolen?

Actually this happened to me about a year ago. You may recall it making the news that an Orioles employee was stealing items out of Camden Yards such as game used bases from Cal Ripken's last games plus other things such as Stadium Giveaway Bobbleheads, etc. & selling them on eBay.

I bought a Ripken MLB certified game used base from this guy on eBay (certainly in good faith), and found out about 4 months later that it was "hot" (once the story hit the wires). I contacted a guy I know in the Orioles front offices and offered to return it (even though I paid over $1500 for it), but they said I could keep it since they were seeking some sort of financial resitution from the former employee.

godwulf
11-13-2007, 09:20 AM
One MLB team equipment man was fired a few years ago for selling stuff to a certain "warehouse" in Oregon, which I guess had been going on for some time. As for the bats, etc, that many of us get from batboys and clubhouse guys, I guess ultimately we only have their word for it that they obtained the things legitimately.

I know a guy who had a number of Vida Blue jerseys, which he bought from a well-known friend of the team owner, from whom he'd gotten them - I mean, pretty rock solid ownership - and he got them signed by Blue at a show...but then VB came over and started giving him a hard time about how the jerseys were his, had been stolen from him, etc, and I guess it got pretty ugly.

bigjimsguitars
11-13-2007, 10:09 AM
Realistictly, probably 60% of the game used out there was probably obtained under questionable circumstances. Before Stiener,etc. A lot of these guys probably had an insider who aquired (stole? ) things out of the clubhouse. I personally have never knowingly bought anything that I knew was hot. But, who's to say that bat, or glove you bought wasn't originally stolen. Think about it. There is much more demand than supply ,isn't there? Just my 2 cents.:D


True.

To this day I will never know if that Canseco bat was stolen or not, but the fact that Jose gave it back to me put it in a different league...however, he never did sign it.

If I knowingly had something that was proven to be stolen, I wouldn't want it, period....

Yankwood
11-13-2007, 02:06 PM
If I knew, and I mean KNEW, for a fact that something was stolen, it would probably be my MOST prized possession because then I would also know that it was real. I flat out refuse to take the high ground on this one. If anyone has anything Yankees or Rochester Red Wings related and they can prove to me that they stole it, pleae email me at tlucas56@yahoo.com. I am definitely interested in buying.

Birdbats
11-13-2007, 05:08 PM
I can honestly say that 100% of my collection is not stolen since 95% of it was handed to me by the player themselves and the other 5% were gotten from the bat boys after games when they broke.

I guess you could get technical and say the players and bat boys who gave you those items didn't pay for them; the team did. Those items were not theirs to give away, so they're 100% "stolen" in a sense (unless there's a team policy that encourages players and bat boys to give stuff away). If I stood outside my employer's place of business and gave away office supplies, I'd probably get fired, if not arrested. I'm not calling anyone unethical, especially you, OaklandAsFan (please don't take my post the wrong way). Just trying to point out the gray area that exists in the hobby.

Granted, such "gifting" is a far cry from stuff that gets pilfered out of clubhouses and passed out the back door. Most of us have items that were given to us by players or bat boys, or given to someone else and then purchased by us later. I'm sure some team owners aren't thrilled with employees who give stuff away -- that prevents them from selling those items and making money (for themselves or charity).

Might be easier to make a list of what qualifies as "not stolen" -- direct team sales, team auctions, player-direct sales (from players who buy their own equipment, like Griffey or Bonds), charity auctions where items were donated by teams, gifts from team officials, purchases from team-contracted vendors (MeiGray, Steiner), etc.

OaklandAsFan
11-13-2007, 05:42 PM
I understand what you are saying BB. I will say this which actually may prove your point that as of 2002 the bat boys were no longer allowed to give out the broken bats after games in Oakland. this was around the same time that the A's started to have a community fund auction during every weekend home game. Prior to 02 though the bat boys were allowed to give out the bats that were broke unless the player specifically asked for them for personal reasons.
As far as players or teams purchasing stuff I have always wondered about that. How do you know who is actually paying for these things? is it safe to assume that a majority of players on the major league staff have their stuff bought for them by the team? what about Pro stock bats in the minors and minor league players using them or bats with their names on them. For example i know there are some AAA players right now in the Arizona Fall League using pro stock bats however you have a guy like Matt Laporta who didn't play above A ball last year and he has bats with his name on them how does all that work? I am pretty sure that fielding gloves are given to the players by the company, what about batting gloves do they get a certain amount free then the team or the player must pay for them? are cleats given to the player or does the team buy them for the player?
just some questions sorry to dump all that on you ;)

10thMan
11-13-2007, 06:26 PM
I would not want an item if I knew it was stolen. Not for any price, it`s just not worth it to me anyway. This does make me wonder though, buying from the public etc...Maybe that`s why some players get upset when you bring them a nice used Bat etc...I dont know what`s worse, STOLEN or "DOCTORED" Equip.???
Sean

whatupyos
11-13-2007, 07:24 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong Jeff, but don't the players buy their bats, not the team? I heard the players buy their bats, thats why some players switched when the prices' of SAM bats went up.

Aaron

Birdbats
11-13-2007, 08:16 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong Jeff, but don't the players buy their bats, not the team? I heard the players buy their bats, thats why some players switched when the prices' of SAM bats went up.


Very few players buy their own bats. Some of the marketing-savvy superstars buy their own and then sell them (after use or just signed), but most players have their bats purchased by the team. Bonds is one who buys his own and had a problem with Sam Bat's price increase. If anyone else switched, it could be because their team chose to purchase bats from other manufacturers.

3arod13
11-14-2007, 06:10 AM
Or, what do you do when you find out--after the fact--something you've purchased was stolen?

I recently purchased a Game Used item that was sold through LeLands Auction. I sent the item to Steiner Sports to have the player sign the item. However, the player wouldn't sign the item because he said the item was stolen from his locker while in the minor leagues.

I had no knowledge at the time I purchased the item that it was stolen from the players locker. However, after the fact, and although I wish it wasn't an item stolen from the players locker, I am very satisifed with my purchase, especially now with confirmation from the player himself that the item was his and stolen from his locker.

I will say that if the player expressed he wanted the item back, I would have worked out something with him in order to do so.

Regards, Tony

34swtns
11-14-2007, 07:15 AM
Yeah, I agree with the previous poster who says he can't take "the higher ground" on this one. Face it, all you holier-than-thou's, you probably ALL have something in your collection that was pilfered. I, personally, wouldn't seek out stolen items but at the same time, "what I don't know, won't hurt me" either. I'm far from being a fence for stolen goods, however I collect the jerseys of a certain southern football team who, it's common knowledge, had the vast majority of their gamers from the late 90's sold out the back door by someone in their organization. Everyone who collects NFL jerseys knows this. Does it stop me from buying them when they come my way? Not a chance. Does it bother me to know I own these items? See previous answer. But this is an example of "everybody's doing it, so these get a pass" whereas if I were offered a unique item and the seller told me up front that it was probably stolen I'd have to say "no thanks". And not because I'm riding around on some big moral "high horse" but simply for the fact of, "how are you ever going to re-sell it"? You buy something that's stolen and you're potentially stuck with it, indefinitely, and I don't buy things with the intention of taking them to my grave, that's ridiculous. Everything is eventually re-sold and you have to have the ability to resell. If an item is stolen, it would be tough to pass along without incriminating yourself.
So, while I'm certainly not advocating purchasing stolen property, I am saying to some of you, don't get all flustered and judgemental about it at the rest of us' expense. You've most likely got some questionable items in your collection, whether you know it or not. What did Slick Willie say? "Don't ask, don't tell"?
My 2 pesos.

cohibasmoker
11-14-2007, 08:03 AM
Hi Guys,

I’d like to make two points on this issue.

First, just because a person says an item is stolen doesn’t make it stolen. For an item to be legally stolen, it must be reported as stolen to law-enforcement who would then place the “stolen article” into the NCIC system.

Then,

If the “stolen article” is located, any law-enforcement officer can legally seize the article and it would be up to the law-enforcement agencies involved as to whether or not criminal charges would be lodged against the person in possession of the “stolen article”.

Personally, if someone told me that an item was stolen, there is no-way I would buy it both for ethical reasons and legal reasons.

Jim

3arod13
11-14-2007, 08:09 AM
I believe there are many of us who probably have game used items in our collections that we bought and were most likely stolen. Again, unless given to you by the player, how do you know it wasn't stolen.

Buying an item that you find out later was stolen is one thing. Buying an item you know is stolen is another.

I can honestly say that if someone offerred me an Alex Rodriguez Game Used item that was stolen from him (not stolen from someones collection) with solid proof, I wouldn't hesitate to buy it.

Regards, Tony

Vintagedeputy
11-14-2007, 08:15 AM
Remember this story?

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/story/2002/03/12/ruben020312.html

3arod13
11-14-2007, 08:39 AM
Remember this story?

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/story/2002/03/12/ruben020312.html

Yes, but this is talking about a player on a team stealing from another player.

Do you honestly believe that most game used items out there being sold were handed over by the players themselves? Many items are obtained from other sources, without the players knowledge. It's has been and is just part of the hobby. Heck, even some of the stuff players sign today as game used is questionable.

ahuff
11-14-2007, 09:37 AM
I believe there are many of us who probably have game used items in our collections that we bought and were most likely stolen. Again, unless given to you by the player, how do you know it wasn't stolen. That is probably a fair statement. I would say other safer sources would be purchasing from the team or a charity.

Buying an item that you find out later was stolen is one thing. I completely agree. Buying an item you know is stolen is another. I'm not sure what policy is, but law enforcement might see it this way as well.

I can honestly say that if someone offerred me an Alex Rodriguez Game Used item that was stolen from him (not stolen from someones collection) with solid proof, I wouldn't hesitate to buy it. What did you include the previous paragraph for. This seems to be a complete contradiction for what you just said. When is it alright to steal or knowingly purchase stolen goods.

Regards, Tony


That is a bizarre statement!!!

Here is the definition I found for stealing.

stealplay_w("S0725700") (sthttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/emacr.gifl)
v. stole (sthttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/omacr.gifl), sto·len (sthttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/omacr.gifhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/prime.giflhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/schwa.gifn), steal·ing, steals
v.tr. 1. To take (the property of another) without right or permission.

How is it o.k. to knowingly take/purchase (without right or permission from ARod) something that is his.

3arod13
11-14-2007, 09:55 AM
That is a bizarre statement!!!

Here is the definition I found for stealing.

stealplay_w("S0725700") (sthttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/emacr.gifl)
v. stole (sthttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/omacr.gifl), sto·len (sthttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/omacr.gifhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/prime.giflhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/schwa.gifn), steal·ing, steals
v.tr. 1. To take (the property of another) without right or permission.

How is it o.k. to knowingly take/purchase (without right or permission from ARod) something that is his.

too much is being read into this. It's part of the hobby. This is how many game used items are obtained.

hblakewolf
11-14-2007, 10:13 AM
I believe there are many of us who probably have game used items in our collections that we bought and were most likely stolen. Again, unless given to you by the player, how do you know it wasn't stolen.

Buying an item that you find out later was stolen is one thing. Buying an item you know is stolen is another.

I can honestly say that if someone offerred me an Alex Rodriguez Game Used item that was stolen from him (not stolen from someones collection) with solid proof, I wouldn't hesitate to buy it.

Regards, Tony

Tony-

It's a bit hard to believe that you would be willing to commit a felony, in order to simply add an A-Rod broken bat, wrist band or jock strap to your memorabilia collection!

In case you need any further clairification about the crime at hand, please see the information below.

What is the crime involving receiving stolen property?http://images.freeadvice.com/images_fa_2/hr-dotted400.gifReceiving stolen goods is generally buying or acquiring the possession of property knowing (or believing in some jurisdictions) that it had been obtained through theft, embezzlement, larceny, or extortion by someone else. The crime is separate from the crime of stealing the property. To be convicted, the receiver must know the goods were stolen at the time he receives them and had the intent to aid the thief. Paying for the goods or intending to collect the reward for returning them are not defenses. Depending on the value of the property received, receiving-stolen-property is either a misdemeanor or a felony.

There are numerous federal laws that make it a federal crime to receive stolen property (e.g., vehicles, securities) if the property received was or had been in interstate commerce.

Unless you enjoy wearing black and white pinstripes (and not those of the White Sox), and find sleeping on a metal bunk enjoyable, I suggest you possibly re-think your collecting strategy.

Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

3arod13
11-14-2007, 10:20 AM
Tony-

It's a bit hard to believe that you would be willing to commit a felony, in order to simply add an A-Rod broken bat, wrist band or jock strap to your memorabilia collection!

In case you need any further clairification about the crime at hand, please see the information below.

What is the crime involving receiving stolen property?http://images.freeadvice.com/images_fa_2/hr-dotted400.gifReceiving stolen goods is generally buying or acquiring the possession of property knowing (or believing in some jurisdictions) that it had been obtained through theft, embezzlement, larceny, or extortion by someone else. The crime is separate from the crime of stealing the property. To be convicted, the receiver must know the goods were stolen at the time he receives them and had the intent to aid the thief. Paying for the goods or intending to collect the reward for returning them are not defenses. Depending on the value of the property received, receiving-stolen-property is either a misdemeanor or a felony.

There are numerous federal laws that make it a federal crime to receive stolen property (e.g., vehicles, securities) if the property received was or had been in interstate commerce.

Unless you enjoy wearing black and white pinstripes (and not those of the White Sox), and find sleeping on a metal bunk enjoyable, I suggest you possibly re-think your collecting strategy.

Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

Ok, I'm done with this thread. Getting a little too ridiculous to me. It's part of the hobby...it's how and where many game used items are obtained. Yes, would be much better if things weren't obtained this way, but it's part of the hobby. Don't have to agree, but it's reality!

godwulf
11-14-2007, 06:50 PM
It's part of the hobby...it's how and where many game used items are obtained. Yes, would be much better if things weren't obtained this way, but it's part of the hobby.

Sure it is...just like a runner slapping the ball out of the hand of the fielder covering First is part of the Game. :rolleyes:

whatupyos
11-14-2007, 07:00 PM
HAHAHA good one!!!!