What does it take for you to believe a story?

[kingjammy24]

lots of pieces in this hobby come with colorful stories of their source. i'm curious what the litmus test is for people to take a story seriously. do you guys only believe a story if there's tangible proof backing it up? do you believe a story if you know the person? do you believe any story?

i ran into this description pertaining to a david ortiz game-used jersey currently for sale on the GFC website:


"This jersey was worn by Big Papi on 10/21/07 when the Red Sox won the American League Pennant. On the left front tail is the “Majestic” manufacturers tag. Below is a strip tag with “34 54 07.” There is an autograph on back done in black marker with inscription “B.P. Game Use!” The B.P. stands for Big Papi. The signature rates an 8. Accompanied by a MEARS LOA grading an A10 and backed by our JSA guarantee. Ortiz took this jersey off after the game and gave it to his friend seated in the stands at Fenway. We obtained this jersey from him who has written a LOA stating this."


http://www.greyflannel.com/sales_main_Detail.php?updateID=2923


i don't know if it comes with any evidence supporting this person's relationship to ortiz or the exchange of the jersey, beyond the person simply saying it happened. it's a nice story. maybe it's true, maybe it isn't. how would you know though? i can write an LOA stating anything. i really hope MEARS' A10 isn't solely based on this single story.


thoughts?


rudy.

[beantown]

I agree there are a lot of stories and who knows if this one involving "Big Papi" is true....however, if your going to spend $5k on a "Big Papi" jersey, just purchase one through Steiner...no questions on authenticity there....

[JETEFAN]

I agree there are a lot of stories and who knows if this one involving "Big Papi" is true....however, if your going to spend $5k on a "Big Papi" jersey, just purchase one through Steiner...no questions on authenticity there....

I have to disagree with you on this one, even some of Steiners stuff in the past have been questionable !!!!!!!

[beantown]

I have to disagree with you on this one, even some of Steiners stuff in the past have been questionable !!!!!!!


Really? I didn't know that...I thought if I were to go to this link...

http://redsox.auction.mlb.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prrfnbr=87759370&prmenbr=33338039&aunbr=88106080

and purchase the jersey w/ the Steiner contract w/ the Red Sox, that I would have a 100% game used "Big Papi" jersey...can you tell me specifically the issues w/ Steiner?

[Vintagedeputy]

I cant speak for Red Sox items but I have seen at least one Steiner certified "Posada game used bat" that was most assuredly not used in a game by Posada.

[bigtruck260]

I don't believe 99% of dealers (even the good ones)...sorry. Stories are just that. There are instances where a dealer or card store owner has told me a line of obvious BS about an item, and I go by my own purchasing guidelines. A bad story does not always mean the item isn't legit (though it usally does unfortunately).

I bought an "early Wille McGee bat" recently on eBay that is a 50/50 shot of being authentic. I got a good deal, so I took a chance. I asked the seller about it, and he told me that he got it in trade from a Cards bat boy. The auction listing said NOTHING about this. I told our resident Birdbats expert...and we had a good chuckle. Sometimes the stories are hilarious.

But, a few times, they are just what the doctor ordered. I have some items in my collection that came from my Grandfather that make the items priceless. They are Indians pieces, and the only non-Cardinals items I own.

Dave

[Vintagedeputy]

You have to take some stories and really think, kind of like detective work. I've purchased obscure things that are area specific and found that the seller lives in that area. Not necessarily like the Pujols bat that Pujols allegedly gave to someone at his house, but each story is different.

[Vintagedeputy]

Here's an example of what I mean - I live in Richmond, Va. Former Phillies Whiz Kid Granny Hamner lived in Richmond.

I went to an estate sale held by the family of a guy that used to own his own construction company.

At the sale, they had a construction contract signed by Hamner and his wife from 1958 along with all of the cancelled checks that the contractor paid the sub-contractors, and a 1959 Topps card of Hamner. The land that the house was built on was a parcel in a then new subdivision a few miles away. More than likely, Hamner gave the guy a card when the house was finished in '59.

Something like that you can believe that the auto is real. You have to be the judge.

Jim

[Nathan]

I love absurd stories. One guy tried to sell me a signed bat from a Hall of Famer came from an encounter at an airport when he was picking up a relative. I looked at him and said "You chased an old man around an airport with a baseball bat and no one thought anything of it?"

It's just as well, as I don't do autographs for the most part and I don't do signed bats without there being a good reason.

[gameused]

lots of pieces in this hobby come with colorful stories of their source. i'm curious what the litmus test is for people to take a story seriously. do you guys only believe a story if there's tangible proof backing it up? do you believe a story if you know the person? do you believe any story?

i ran into this description pertaining to a david ortiz game-used jersey currently for sale on the GFC website:


"This jersey was worn by Big Papi on 10/21/07 when the Red Sox won the American League Pennant. On the left front tail is the “Majestic” manufacturers tag. Below is a strip tag with “34 54 07.” There is an autograph on back done in black marker with inscription “B.P. Game Use!” The B.P. stands for Big Papi. The signature rates an 8. Accompanied by a MEARS LOA grading an A10 and backed by our JSA guarantee. Ortiz took this jersey off after the game and gave it to his friend seated in the stands at Fenway. We obtained this jersey from him who has written a LOA stating this."


http://www.greyflannel.com/sales_main_Detail.php?updateID=2923


i don't know if it comes with any evidence supporting this person's relationship to ortiz or the exchange of the jersey, beyond the person simply saying it happened. it's a nice story. maybe it's true, maybe it isn't. how would you know though? i can write an LOA stating anything. i really hope MEARS' A10 isn't solely based on this single story.


thoughts?



rudy.


I can tell you for a fact that this statment is false "Ortiz took this jersey off after the game and gave it to his friend seated in the stands at Fenway."

David Ortiz started the celebration early by taking off his jersey and wearing goggles as the Red Sox took a big lead in the eighth inning.

[skipcareyisfat]

Great background stories and really nice looking COAs have a lot in common. Many are worthless and none make an item good or bad. I tend not to put a lot of faith in whatever story I'm being told unless I know and trust the person I'm buying from. That's not to say that I think the seller's lying. A good story, however, too often leads to the buyer looking at the item with one eye shut.

Two quick examples from personal experience:

On the old message board, I posted about the time I bought a Phillies helmet signed by and supposedly used by Pete Rose in 1981. The seller, David Drozen, told me about how he bought it from an old lady. When he took it to Rose to get signed, he said Rose told him that he wore it one Saturday night in 1981. None of this turned out to be true. See here for the full story:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/379976/thread/1111818045/

When I bought Ivan Calderone's 1991 Expos helmet, the seller told me that he got it and a bunch of other equipment directly from Marquis Grissom after a game at Atlanta Fulton-County Stadium in the middle of the '91 season. I liked the helmet but I didn't buy the story--until I photo-matched the helmet to a '91 shot of Calderone taken at Atlanta Fulton-County Stadium.

[cards-bats]

I've found out that two of the stories I was told by Grey Flannel were totally bogus. I've also found out that they DO NOT stand behind their LOA when it you point out that their stories are bogus.

[hblakewolf]

I've found out that two of the stories I was told by Grey Flannel were totally bogus. I've also found out that they DO NOT stand behind their LOA when it you point out that their stories are bogus.

Cards Bats-

Extremely interesting. Can you elaborate on your situation and how it was or was not taken care of by the folks at GFC? Was a refund in order?

Thanks.
Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

[bigtruck260]

[/b][/i]

Cards Bats-

Extremely interesting. Can you elaborate on your situation and how it was or was not taken care of by the folks at GFC? Was a refund in order?

Thanks.
Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net


Second that CB. I have several items from Grey Flannel...

Thn

[kingjammy24]

I can tell you for a fact that this statment is false "Ortiz took this jersey off after the game and gave it to his friend seated in the stands at Fenway."

David Ortiz started the celebration early by taking off his jersey and wearing goggles as the Red Sox took a big lead in the eighth inning.

this game just happened. does anyone have any footage showing ortiz taking his jersey off and/or from the time he took it off to the time he went back to the dugout? it'd be great to visually track ortiz's jersey during that game.

without any corroborating evidence, the story is rubbish and not even worthy of taking into consideration.

rudy.

[G1X]

I was working in my yard on Sunday and looked up to see a magnificent bald eagle circling about 100 feet above my house. None of my neighbors were outside at the time to observe the eagle. I did not take any photos, and there were no eagle feathers (or droppings) deposited on my deck.

There was no evidence that the eagle was there. However, my neighbors had no problem believing my story because eagles live in our area, and most important, they trust me.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

[Vintagedeputy]

I was working in my yard on Sunday and looked up to see a magnificent bald eagle circling about 100 feet above my house. None of my neighbors were outside at the time to observe the eagle. I did not take any photos, and there were no eagle feathers (or droppings) deposited on my deck.

There was no evidence that the eagle was there. However, my neighbors had no problem believing my story because eagles live in our area, and most important, they trust me.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net


I bet you could get Lou Lampson to write a COA for you.

[G1X]

Vintage Deputy,

Is that a stab at humor, or are you completely missing the point?

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

[Vintagedeputy]

It was obviously a poor attempt at humor. :)

[kingjammy24]

I was working in my yard on Sunday and looked up to see a magnificent bald eagle circling about 100 feet above my house. None of my neighbors were outside at the time to observe the eagle. I did not take any photos, and there were no eagle feathers (or droppings) deposited on my deck.

There was no evidence that the eagle was there. However, my neighbors had no problem believing my story because eagles live in our area, and most important, they trust me.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

mark

i understand your point re: trust. the issue here is that most prospective buyers have no clue who this person is who's stating that ortiz gave him the jersey. when there is no trust, you've got to rely on some sort of evidence, especially with such a wild story. i suppose they could trust GFC although in my personal opinion that trust would be misplaced. the fact that ortiz removed his jersey prior to the end of the game already doesn't bode well. i'd be very curious to know how this story was verified by GFC or MEARS, beyond simply a guy saying "yup. it happened. i swear". it's fine if GFC trusted him, for one reason or another. given that his identity wasn't revealed nor was any evidence given whatsoever about his relationship with ortiz or anything else, i'd like to know how or why prospective buyers are expected to trust the story to the tune of $5k.

that said, i wonder how many of your neighbors would choose to believe your story if meant they'd lose $5k if it turned out to be wrong ;)

rudy.

[G1X]

Vintage Deputy,
I must admit that I grinned when I read your post.:)

Rudy,
As for my neighbors, I would pay them the $5,000 if I was incorrect in what I saw last Sunday. :o

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

[David]

Much depends on who's telling the story. If George Steinbrenner says Billy Martin gave him the glove for his birthday, that's certainly a plausible story. If my dad says he met Warren Spahn at the Milwaukee airport, I'd believe the story. If the story comes from someone you don't know well, and have no no knowledge to be trustworthy or untrustworthy, it's just a story. Might be true, but you don't know. If this person has a ticket from the game and Kodak snapshots with Willie Mays, that gives credence that Mays gave him the bat in person as he claims. If a bat expert says the bat is a genuine Mays gamer, you might well believe his story about meeting Mays.

[David]

I know Dave Bushing says a good letter of provenance, or story, should come from someone who was in a legitimate otherwise provable position to obtain the item. A bat boy, coach and even someone who can prove she worked as Mickey Mantle's maid would have been in an occupational position to know the player and possibly obtain an item.

[David]

It has been said that for every forgery (whether painting, Babe Ruth autograph or baseball card) there is an accompanying made up story about where it came from.

[kingjammy24]

from mears:

"In the specific case of the 2007 David Ortiz jersey being offered by Grey Flannel Auctions, the jersey was notated via an authentic autograph inscription by David Ortiz as Game Used. The inscription per David Ortiz was both reasonable and verifiable (authentic inscription)."

so, fair enough..it wasn't the consigner's story that got the A10. it was ortiz's inscription. interestingly enough, it still goes back to the issue of trust. some players will write "game used" on anything you pay them too. others actually have scruples. who knows where ortiz fits in. i'm guessing somewhere near manny "hey it's my bbq! ok, it's not really my bbq" ramirez.

mark: fair enough! i'd love to see richie russek make the same money-back guarantee if the story is proven to be b.s. ;)

anyway, if the jersey is legit, it's another interesting example of a jersey that steiner paid for via their contract that a player managed to sneak out. steiner signs an "exclusive" with the yankees and arod still sells his own jerseys elsewhere. they sign an exclusive with the redsox and ortiz sells them elsewhere anyway? steiner previously shut down some other yankee auctions. it'll be interesting to see if they have words with ortiz/gfc over this one.

rudy.

[hblakewolf]

Rudy-
I'd be curious to learn what the reaction by the folks at Steiner is to this specific jersey? I think Bob Maldenado (?) from Steiner is a Universe reader/member-can he possibly post his thoughts on this? If indeed Steiner has an EXCLUSIVE agreement, how did this particular shirt enter the hobby without their hologram and paperwork?

Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

[ChrisCavalier]

Hello Everyone,

I received a call from Dave Bushing today about this thread and he wanted to make sure it was clear that Mears granted 5 points for the player inscription (contributing to the A10 grade) and not the story of the friend who supposedly received the jersey from Ortiz. This point has been explained in further detail in the following post on the Mears site:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/426247/message/1193939849/Assigning+A10+grades+on+currrent+player+items

If you have any further questions about the Mears letter he said you can feel free to contact them directly.

Sincerely,
Chris

[Birdbats]

Interesting thread. Also interesting that one example mentioned a Willie Mays bat, because it allows me to add a slightly different twist to the conversation. I bought a seller's story (and his Willie Mays bat) based on the fact that he wasn't an expert.

A couple years ago, I received a call from a friend and fellow collector telling me that one of his co-workers had a Willie Mays bat and he was interested in selling it. The owner's story went something like this: He was about 12 and was in Houston on vacation with his family visiting relatives. They went to a game in the Astrodome when the Giants were playing the Astros. This was in the mid to late 1960s. During the game, Mays hit a HR and when he returned to the dugout, he "flipped" the bat on the roof where this person (and two other kids) were positioned. This person grabbed the bat and ran back to his seat. Long story short, he held onto the bat for almost 40 years, basically putting it in a closet and forgetting about it. One day, he saw the bat and decided it probably was worth something -- that's what led to the phone call I received. When I saw the bat, it was a perfect specimen -- S2 model from '65-'68, ideal Mays pine-tar pattern, good use, no crack, 24 on knob, etc. It had everything. In talking to the owner, it was obvious that he was not a collector, nor even a baseball fan (my friend, his co-worker, confirms this). He was just a guy who grabbed a bat as a kid and now was looking to make a buck on it. If the guy was a fan or collector, I probably would have harbored some suspicion regarding his story. But, because he seemed to care practically nothing about the sport or the bat, I accepted his story as being more legit.

Now, I'm not sure I'm buying everything he says. Was it really a HR bat? Did Willie actually flip it up on the dugout after running the bases (wouldn't the bat boy have taken it back to the dugout)? Why would Mays discard an uncracked bat that he just hit a HR with? There's no way to know. What I do know is that the bat is an ideal Mays bat that matches the era... and the seller wasn't capable of faking that/making that up.

The thing that's always intrigued me most is the fact that Mays hit his 500th HR in the Astrodome. I've done some research, but keep hitting dead ends regarding the bat he used for the milestone. Photos I've seen suggest it was a Louisville Slugger, not an Adirondack. The BBHOF in Cooperstown doesn't have his 500th HR bat. I've often wondered if this could be the bat -- if Mays was so happy that he gave his bat to a kid. Honestly, after meeting the bat's former owner, I think it's possible he could have seen history and it didn't even sink in. I'll probably never know.

There's an old saying that goes, "You just can't make this stuff up." Well, that's how I felt about the Mays bat and the owner's story... and it's a big reason I bought the bat.

[ChrisCavalier]

I'd be curious to learn what the reaction by the folks at Steiner is to this specific jersey? I think Bob Maldenado (?) from Steiner is a Universe reader/member-can he possibly post his thoughts on this? If indeed Steiner has an EXCLUSIVE agreement, how did this particular shirt enter the hobby without their hologram and paperwork?
Hello Howard,

I spoke to my contact at Steiner about your question. He told me the Steiner agreement with teams such as the Red Sox is, in fact, an exclusive one. He also said they had not experienced any player in any of their deals remove his jersey from either the dugout or clubhouse against team regulations. He said Steiner did also speak with the Red Sox about this particular jersey and the Red Sox admitted that it may have been possible that David Ortiz removed his jersey and gave it to someone after the the ALCS. However, if that was the case, the Red Sox said is would have been an isolated incident and they are confident that it had not happened at any other time during the season.

I hope that helps.

Sincerely,
Chris