An Absolutely MUST READ FOR GAME USED COLLECTORS!!

[ChrisCavalier]

Hello Everyone-

I believe one of the critical issues facing the game used collecting community today is the need to figure out whether an item is actually game used by a player (assuming they are looking for a "game used" item) before making an acquisition. Unfortunately, this is not always an easy task.

For example, there has been a move in the authentication community to title bats that have been authenticated "Professional Model" bats rather than "Game Used" bats. What does this mean to the collector? As a collector you now have more responsibility than ever to do your own due diligence to figure out if an item was actually used by a player. Since the "Letters of Opinion" do not say "Game Used" you are now more responsible for making that determination. In fact, you will notice that some auction houses (like Robert Edward Auctions) have already begun listing the title of items "Professional Model Bat" rather than "Game Used Bat" since that is what the "Letters of Opinion" now say.

Along these lines, Jim Caravello has just posted two blogs in the Experts' Corner of our site that address this issue in regards to a recent Eddie Mathews bat that was sold on eBay. These blogs are an absolute must read for bat collectors as well as collectors of any game used item as the factors discussed are not limited to bats.

Here is an excerpt to give you an example of what Jim explains "My points for the original posting were to help educate the collecting community foremost – to let them know that there is more than one type of Louisville Slugger factory record – to inform them that other players ordered bats of different players... – to inform them that they need to dig deeper and not just accept a COA because it says that a bat matches factory records and become comfortable with that – to inform them that more information might change their opinion of the bat’s provenance and value before they make a decision to bid or buy an item.

I URGE YOU TO READ THESE BLOGS AND THEN ASK WHATEVER QUESTIONS YOU NEED TO MAKE SURE YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT IS BEING DISCUSSED. THE INFORMATION CONTAINED IN THEM CAN SAVE YOU THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS. IN FACT, I HAVE LOST MANY THOUSAND OF DOLLARS MYSELF IN THE PAST BECAUSE I DID NOT UNDERSTAND WHAT JIM HELPS EXPLAIN IN HIS BLOGS.

You can find his blogs by clicking on the Experts' Corner link in our global navigation. Or, if you prefer, here is a link to the first blog entitled "Professional Model Bat - or Factory Documented Bat?" :

http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/blog/post.php?topic=178

Part two of this blog can be found at:

http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/blog/topic.php?forum=26

As you know, one of the main purposes of this site is to help the collecting community with valuable information and resources that you may not have access to otherwise. Blogs like these, as well as forum posts like the one recently by Mike Specht are, in my opinion, invaluable to the game used collector. I hope you take the opportunity to benefit from what is shared.

Sincerely,
Christopher Cavalier
CEO - Game Used Universe

[eGameUsed]

Jim, Chris, and others! I am very glad to see the blogs by Jim. Strangely enough, I believe this very bat was offered to everyone on the forum back in December 2005. Check this out:

http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=720&highlight=mathews

Thanks,

Chris Boyd

[Eric]

Hey everyone

I know zero about collecting game used bats, but I wanted to thank every one involved on their work toward educating collectors and dealers. This is a good discussion to have and it is one which will benefit everyone.

Thank you
Eric

[Birdbats]

In Jim's second blog, he says he believes the weight of a bat stays pretty consistent over time... and if it changes, it increases due to humidity, etc. That's the first time I've ever heard anyone make that claim. I've always been under the assumption that bats lose weight over time because all wood (furniture, decks, bats, whatever) eventually loses moisture and dries out.

Personally, I've never had a bat that weighed more than what was listed in factory records. They usually are the same or a bit lighter. The only exception is a 35 ounce Ozzie Smith bat from 86-89, which -- due to its weight -- must be an Anaconda-Kaye bat (gaining 2-3 ounces seems very unlikely).

I try to keep the humidity level around 50% where my bats are displayed so they don't dry out.

I'd like to hear other thoughts on this topic. Thanks.

Jeff
http://www.birdbats.com

[JimCaravello]

Hi Jeff - bats that are finished should lose little if any mosture over time, as the wood is sealed - also, the use of the bat and oils from human touch and soiling from general use, the use of pine tar, etc. - also will retain the moisture already inherent in the wood and most likely would increase the weight. Part of the problems with some of the authenticators is that they hang their hat on a large tolerances in weight shifts. Some of the authenticators are allowing up to 5 ounces in difference, which is ludicrous. Like you, and as mentioned in my blog, I have never had bats weigh more than around a 1/2 ounce difference from this time period - and 99% of them have been dead on. This particular bat did not have the use that would cause a lot of grain separation and open the bat pores so to speak. Two ounces for me is just way off the mark from this period and is outside what I consider a tolerable range for weight differences. Hope this helps and let me know if you have any other questions. Thanks, Jim Caravello

[kingjammy24]

Wood is an inherantly, naturally porous material. As it grows, it naturally contains a good deal of moisture. When it's harvested and turned into things like bats or furniture, most of the moisture is removed because it undergoes a commercial drying process. Finished wood products are typically very dry and have lost most of their moisture from the process.(That is, commercially dried wood has more moisture to gain than it has to lose).

The drying process, however, does nothing to change the fact that the wood will remain porous. This porous nature is a two way street; wood will either lose or gain moisture dependent on it's enviroment. If the atmosphere is humid, wood will gain moisture. If the atmosphere is dry, it will lose moisture. I suppose both you and Jim should add caveats to your assumptions; if Jim says that wood can only gain moisture as time goes on, then that completely assumes that it's kept in a humid environment. It's physically impossible for wood to gain moisture if it's in a very dry environment. However, your contrary assumption that all wood loses moisture is only true if it's kept in a dry environment. If wood is kept in a humid environment, it can't lose moisture. (Sealants will prevent wood from absorbing or losing moisture).

Wood will continue to lose or gain moisture until it is in equilibrium with the humidity of the air around it.

In short, you're both partially right. Unless it's sealed in an air-tight environment or completely covered in sealant, wood will continue to constantly lose and/or absorb moisture in relation to respective changes in it's environment. Wood is just a sponge. It's the environment that will dictate whether it loses or gains moisture.


Rudy.

[JimCaravello]

Rudy - you are correct that wood can increase in weight or decrease in weight depending upon the environment it is held in. Three very important points are ( 1 ) the amount of weight that a bat can increase in weight or lose weight have been dimished severly as the wood has been cut - much of the mositure has been removed and it has been dried and made into a bat. The weight shifts will be minimal going forward...( 2 ) This particular bat was finished - changes in mositure content cannot be entirely stopped, but can be retarded to a high degree by coatings or treatments applied to the wood surface....( 3 ) the handling, skin oils, soiling, game use, tar application ( if any ) would only increase the weight of the bat. Great post by you and you are correct - although I feel the circumstances at hand still say two ounces in weight loss from this time period are outside of the tolerable range.

Let's not forget that the weight component to my posting is only one of many points made - and that we all need to examine bats in greater detail before we bid or purchase. Jim Caravello

[kingjammy24]

Jim,

I was just yapping about wood and moisture in general. I didn't intend to imply anything specific about bats per se or that specific Matthews bat.
Just a little blabbing about how wood can gain or lose moisture and how it doesn't do either inherantly. It's all dependent on the environment.

In terms of bats though, it seems that while most have a sealant applied at the factory, some players will intentionally sand their bats (thus removing the sealant) or will order bats which seem to display barrels lacking in sealant. 'Matte'-finished barrels. Only LVS comes to mind though. Most of the modern bats from companies like Sam seem to always have a glossy sealant applied, top to bottom.

I thought your blog entries were interesting and valuable even for non-bat collectors because the main message rings true for any type of game-used collector; 'Dig as deep as you can and don't rely entirely on one aspect because many things in this hobby aren't entirely what they seem at first glance'.

Rudy.

[JimCaravello]

Rudy - you have hit the point of both postings....dig as dep as you can. As an aside, I have many bats, but my favorites are Louisville's that are unfinished - if they are heavily used, they show great use attributes that are sometimes hard to distinguish on finished bats........

[ghostkid]

Jim,

Thanks for your willingness to share your knowledge of game used bats with the readers of this forum. Compared to just a few short years ago, so much more information is now available to help the average collector make informed decisions. In the long run, I believe this sharing of information will bring many additional collectors into the hobby and ultimately make the hobby more enjoyable for everyone.

I understand and agree with your comments about finished bats from the 1960's not losing much additional weight due to drying out after the bat has been finished. My question concerns older bats, such as those H/B bats made before WWII. Does it seem reasonable to allow for a greater margin of error in the weight of those older bats? If so, how much extra variation in weight do you feel is acceptable for matching a bat against factory records (assuming factory records are available)?

Thanks again for your insight...

Kevin Kasper

[BoneRubbedBat]

I have hundreds of pre-WWII game used bats, with the majority of them being sidewritten. Almost every sidewritten bat I have ever had (that I could decipher) has included the weight before the sidewritten name. I just went through twenty-four random bats and weighed them on a digital scale and compared the results to the sidewritten weights. All bats were pre-1940, with many being from the teens and twenties. Twenty-three out of twenty-four bats were within 0.9 ounces of the sidewritten weights. The one standout was sidewritten at 36 oz. and weighed in at 34.8. One of the bats that I weighed was sidewritten 44 oz. and weighed 44.1 oz on my scale. I will look at a few more to see if I can find any that are further "off".

Marcus Sevier

[JimCaravello]

Kevin - I have only owned 5 ( five ) pre-50 bats - most were from the 30's. A couple that I owned were within a 1/2 ounce of the stated shipping record weight and the other three were pretty much dead on. Hope that helps. Jim

[ghostkid]

Thank you Marcus and Jim. I very much appreciate your thoughts about weight loss/gain for pre-war H&B gamer bats. Do either of you (or anyone else) have any strong opinions on those non-H&B pre-war bats that are now being called professional model bats. In particular, I'm referring to the Spalding, Kren, Hanna Batrite, and Zinn Beck bats. My understanding is that photo evidence and/or side-written examples exist that support each of these brands being used by major league ballplayers.

Kevin

[JimCaravello]

Hi Kevin - there are two issues for me on these older bats. The first is that if someone sees a photo of a player with say a Zinn Beck - and he's not in a game, but he's in a batting cage or on the playing field in a non game situation - then all of a sudden, that bat is a game used bat. I have a problem with this, as its not documented that they used the bat at the plate. That's why I stick with factory documented Louisville Sluggers on pre-1950 bats. The second issue I have is that if let's call it again, a Zinn Beck is pictured with a player - then every Zinn Beck that is stamped in a similar fashion becomes a game used bat no matter who the player is. There was a recent Vintage Authentics auction that had numerous Hanna Batrite bats - and they were all game used. I found that very interesting.

I'll be the first to admit that I don't have experience in these older bats. My focus and my expertise is in bats from the 40's - 80's. I still contend more research must be done by collectors and authenticators before we liberally stamp these older bats as game used. That's my opinion.....Jim

[ghostkid]

Jim,

I agree that more research needs to be done on these non-H&B bats that are now being labeled as professional models. Being too liberal is a dangerous thing, when there isn't proper evidence to back up the claim that a bat is really a pro model. I was shocked to see all of those Hanna Batrite bats for sale in a recent Vintage Authentics auction. The final sale prices seemed to imply that there are many collectors out there who are comfortable with the determination that those bats were professional models.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I think the decision by MEARS to classify certain Zinn Beck models as professional models was not entirely based on the photo of that mega-famous player in front of the dugout holding a Zinn Beck bat. My understanding of the article written by Troy Kinunen was that MEARS has also reviewed several side-written Zinn Beck bats that originated from the H&B archives. I agree that the photo by itself does not provide overwhelming evidence that certain zinn Beck bats are pro models, but does combining the photo evidence with the side-written bat examples make it plausible enough to label these bats as pro models?

Kevin

[JimCaravello]

Kevin - my comment was a broad and general comment - and not specific to Zinn Beck bats. I am also not condemning the work of any authenticators - but this tact has been taken in the past - you see a photo of the bat in a player's hand while sitting int he dugout and all the bats are game used......Jim