ManRam Jerseys

[Rob L]

Hey all,

I was surfing through eBay the over night looking at the ManRam used items and saw a 2004 jersey with the obligatory stains, large 2004 label and ManRam.com letter and COA. Curious as to the authenticity, I went throught his forum and found all sorts of different thoughts on these including:

1) fake, 2004 label added and not the Red Sox issued jersey
2) fake, Manny ordered and had someone roll around in the dirt,
3) real, Manny being Manny, he ordered a ton of jerseys to use and sell, used once and then wiped his hands off after the game
4) real, ManRam's heavy use of cologne still present on these jerseys.

Interesting dilemma. Any idea what the final word is for these?

Rob L

[kingjammy24]

hi rob

it's stupendous to see someone search the forum before asking a question.

anyway, i'm not aware that a final, conclusive verdict has been reached on these. manny hasn't exactly come out and said they're all rubbish or otherwise. personally, there are a handful of guys i wouldn't trust in the least when it comes to game-used items. ramirez being one of them. arod, ortiz, griffey being the others.

here's the thing though; when you search getty, there are many photos from 2004 to today showing manny in action with his jersey untucked. usually after a game. the tagging seen in the photos is always the standard red sox tagging. i'd like to see a single photo of manny, with his jersey untucked, showing his homemade tagging. secondly, why is it that the gamers with the standard tagging seem to show substantially different wear from the jerseys with his homemade tagging? that is, the jerseys with the homemade tags are covered in dirt whereas the standard tagged gamers aren't. i suppose it's possible that his homemade jerseys aren't washed before being sold whereas the standard tagged jerseys are washed. personally i don't believe the cologne necessarily or conclusively points to them being worn. i believe these homemade jerseys could easily have acquired the scent simply from being in the same bag or closet as some of manny's other scent-laden clothing. after all, if ramirez was ordering these jerseys and making them up himself, then it's entirely likely they'd be temporarily stored amongst his other personal items.

if you were looking to purchase a ramirez gamer, i have to think that going with one that has the standard tagging makes more sense solely based on the fact that there's substantial photographic proof of manny wearing standard-tagged jerseys. until i see a single photo of him wearing the homemade tagging, i have to give more weight to the standard-tagged jerseys simply based on the photo evidence.

rudy.

[Rob L]

Hey Rudy,

What about size? The ManRam jerseys with the crappy 2004 tags are usually size 56 with 4" armholes. I saw a gamer from 2004 with the correct 2004 tag that is a size 54 with 3" armholes. Any thoughts?

Rob L

[madlab7]

Rob,
While I do not know about all 4 of the scenerios you presented, I do know about one. I know that Manny personally ordered 30 jerseys for the 2004 season. He ordered them from Majestic in addition to the jerseys that Boston supplied for him. He ordered them during Spring Training so it makes alot of sense about what you said about him wearing them one game and selling them.

[kingjammy24]

the thing i've never understood about manny's homemade tags is why they even exist. if manny ordered these jerseys from majestic (and i'm not doubting he did) then why didn't they simply have the standard majestic tagging that majestic used on all of the redsox jerseys? did manny just forget to ask for year tags in his order? perhaps. it's just strange that, with manny being able to order as many of his own jerseys as he likes, completely up to spec, that there was even a need for him to do those silly homemade tags.

rudy.

[Rob L]

Rudy,

just curious what you make of the size issue that I listed above.

Thanks,

Rob L

[madlab7]

Rudy,
I have never seen the homemade tagging so I do not know why he would add it. The only one from his order that I have ever seen has had just the normal tagging.

[staindsox]

I have owned four of these (two from 2003 and two from 2004) and I still maintain that they are legit.

1) I was the person who posted on the cologne (was quoted from Todd Jones). It was directly applied to the jersey and not from just sitting around in a closet. Why? You can still smell the cologne THREE YEARS LATER. If it just smelled from being in a closet, airing it out for three years would have taken care of the problem It was on the front of the jersey.

2) FYI, they are all size 54, not 56. It matches the size he was wearing at the time.

3) There are signs of game use that only someone who has purchased on would see. There are dirt/pinetar stains under one arm where a bat was held. I had one where you could see a line where the jersey was tucked in and could actually see where the belt loops were. There was some slight letter fraying and pilling in areas.

4) Explain the tagging. Granted it is not Red Sox standard tagging, but why do through the effort when two signed COAs would satisfy most buyers anyway? Many of his 2005-current "game used" jerseys are showing up that don't even have tagging, even though Majestic will let him order as many game-ready jerseys as he wants (Russell did not do this), but we cling to the argument of the wash codes. On top of it, it doesn't even remotely look like Red Sox tagging. If he going to put the effort into faking the tagging, wouldn't he at least try to make it look remotely like Red Sox tagging?

What does it matter anyway? The jerseys are from the manufacturer because of the alterations. Manny has extra inches added to the arm openings. These are not retail jerseys.

Maybe the Red Sox kept close tabs on the 2004 and earlier jerseys and he had to tag them to prove they were his and not the teams. For some reason, they were tagged so everyone would know they were the charity jerseys.

5) Why go through all of this to not wear the jerseys? It doesn't take much to throw one on for one or two games. Keep in mind, they were sold for charity and it is run by his sister. If they are fakes, he not only defrauded collectors, but a charity as well. I'm sure plenty of people don't like Manny, but I can't see the guy defrauding a charity. That is sick, twisted, and low. It isn't worth the risk for a guy making over $20 million a year.

Basically the nay-sayers are claiming:

1. He ordered extras from the manufacturer.
2. Went to the effort to make up fake tagging (which doesn't even resemble the real tagging).
3. Created tamper-proof hologram seals to apply to the fake tagging.
4. Made up two COAs, even having his sister sign one.
5. Created and maintained an entire website, saying these are being sold for charity.
6. Rolled around in dirt to make it look like they were worn, even making sure to apply dirt, pinetar, and even blood in one or two cases.
7. Make sure the jerseys even smelled like what a Manny gamer would smell like.

All of this was done to defraud his fans of $550 in 2003 and $1000 in 2004. Now look at Steiner's prices...if this were all a moneymaking scheme, wouldn't he have charged a little more for all this effort he put in???

Go ahead, punch holes in one or two of these arguments, but this is way way too much effort for "Manny being Manny."

Chris

[kingjammy24]

rob:

i have no clue about manny's sizes or alterations. i'll post some pics later on showing his jersey untucked. i think i have one from 2007 and i think the strip tag seems to show it's a 56. i have no clue about earlier years. if you're looking to purchase a ramirez gamer, then you might be best served by waiting to see what steiner gets from their redsox deal.

chris:

i know we've gone over this whole thing previously. truth is i'm not entirely sold on either viewpoint. i think we've each made some good points. if rob was asking because he's interested in purchasing a ramirez gamer then it's my opinion that, if he had to choose between the 2 kinds, he'd likely be best served by choosing one with standard tagging simply because noone's going to have an issue with it based on the tagging. i know i'm not the only one who's got an issue with those homemade jerseys. maybe i'm wrong but in terms of choosing one over the other to purchase it's still something to consider.

"3) Explain the tagging. Granted it is not Red Sox standard tagging, but why go through the effort when two signed COAs would satisfy most buyers anyway?"

somone clearly did. i mean the tags are on there. we aren't imagining them. SOMEONE went through the effort obviously, so if it wasn't manny, then who? and why?

"On top of it, it doesn't even remotely look like Red Sox tagging. If he going to put the effort into faking the tagging, wouldn't he at least try to make it look remotely like Red Sox tagging?"

you'd think so but apparently the evidence clearly shows otherwise. the tags are there, they don't look like red sox tags, and they're only on jerseys coming from ramirez himself. sure you'd think he'd try to make it look legit but the proof is in the tagging. why postulate what ramirez hypothetically would've done when you can clearly see what he actually did? it's like there's a guy standing over a body with a smoking gun in his hand and you're saying "but would he really have used a gun?". i don't understand what you're saying here. are you saying the tags were done by the red sox or majestic?

how closely do you think manny studies proper tagging fonts? he probably just noticed that his 2004 jerseys had a paper tag that said 2004 so he told whoever to make up a tag that said 2004. you think manny would've said "it's a non-serif font, almost like an arial but not quite. try verdana and we'll see how it looks."? it's my opinion that if manny was going to fake the tagging (which he did because if it wasn't him, then who?), then no, he wouldn't try to make it look realistic because he likely wouldn't have paid attention to such fine details. manny knows as much about fonts as i do about hitting grand slammers out of fenway.

"What does it matter anyway? The jerseys are from the manufacturer because of the alterations. Manny has extra inches added to the arm openings. These are not retail jerseys."

oh right, as long as they're not retail jerseys then we can put this matter to rest. what do you mean what does it matter? people are spending thousands based entirely on the idea that these are game worn. if someone spent $3k on one of these and discovered it wasn't game worn is it ok if they're told "hey its straight from the manufacturer..it's not retail"? who cares if it's straight from the manufacturer and not retail. that's not what people are paying thousands for and that's why it matters.

anyway, i'm not sure why you believe he made $1000 in 2004 from these jerseys. there are boatloads of these things out there and when bought directly from manny they cost at least a grand a piece. as for this all being too much effort for a guy making $20 MM a year, you'd think so but then explain this:

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2005/12/20/its_been_winter_wonder_land/

25 jerseys. he probably unloaded them for $1k a piece if sportsworld is selling them for $2500 a piece. so you tell me why a guy with a deal for $160 MILLION a year would bother to invite a complete stranger into his home just to make a measly $25k? it does seem illogical and it does seem like too much effort for nothing but again, there it is as plain as day right?

"I can't see the guy defrauding a charity. That is sick, twisted, and low. It isn't worth the risk for a guy making over $20 million a year."

i can't see someone lying to their fans and attempting to defraud them but manny proved me wrong:

http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=7603

there it is, plain as day. "I'm a businessman, I've got to make a little money," Ramirez hollered to teammate Doug Mirabelli."

rudy.

[kingjammy24]

http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/9756/mannyqo1.jpg

looks like the nameplate isn't serged.

rudy.

[staindsox]

Rudy, first of all I want to say I think we’re getting at many of the same points. What this all boils down to is whether or not he actually wore these jerseys. That being said, I would like to comment on a few factors:

1) It wasn’t just the tagging that changed from 2004 to 2005; the manufacturer did as well. You really cannot compare any pre-2004 jerseys to any produced from 2005 and on. It’s apples and oranges. That would be like comparing a Louisville Slugger to an Easton. Also, Manny wore 54s in 2004 and he went to the 56s after the switch to Majestic.

2) I also wanted to comment on the tagging. Majestic has been the supplier since 2005 and they will literally will make as many properly tagged game-ready jerseys as the player requests…the player only has to pay the cost of each jersey. This is why there has been a huge flood of Ramirez and Ortiz jerseys from 2005 and on. I don’t believe Russell followed this same practice. I’m guessing Manny was only issued 2 or 3 properly tagged jerseys in 2004. He could probably order as many as he wanted, but they weren’t all tagged with team tagging. It would explain why they aren’t all tagged with factory tagging. Obviously, Russell wouldn’t do it for him.

We do know these jerseys came from Russell because of the alterations…these are not retail jerseys (FYI, Majestic does not have alteration tags like Rawlings). This is also why I said the tagging was really immaterial. We are not really debating where the jerseys came from, but rather if he actually wore them. What we do not know is whether or not he wore them.

I believe he had them tagged to designate that they were charity jerseys…he paid for them, not the team. Also, obviously Manny did not tag these jerseys himself. Anyone who does this service could easily have made them more closely resemble team tagging. I don’t think they were ever meant to look like official tagging, but rather to differentiate team jerseys from his charity jerseys.

That being said, after handling several of these and seeing a numerous signs of usage I listed in a previous post, I am completely comfortable saying that he used them. That being said, there is an important caveat attached to it. I do not think he used them for more than a game or two. Most of the games he played were likely with the Red Sox tagged jerseys. It is also worth mentioning that Orlando Cabrera was the one who got the team to start untucking their jerseys after games, which was in August of 2004 at the earliest. I have looked around a lot and their aren’t that many photos of Manny showing tagging in 2003 or early 2004.

So, what to buy…
I agree that I would rather have a gamer with the standard Red Sox tagging. I would also rather purchase one of the charity jerseys than anything produced by Majestic (unless it is from Steiner). I am not joking saying that it would not surprise me if he and Ortiz had more than 200 jerseys made every year through Majestic. Look at how many 2005-current Manny and Papi bats and jerseys show up on eBay. I had seen countless numbers of 2005 Ramirez jerseys…most look brand new and still factory starched. Unless you’re buying from Steiner, buy a Russell Manny, not a Majestic.

Chris

[staindsox]

You would actually need a nameplate shot from 2004 or so. The Sox used Russell then and have used Majestic from 2005 and on.

[gamer35]

Being a Manny collector, I have handled two of these and subsequently steered clear after due to the following concerns:
1) Why is it that the most soiled part of the jersey not exposed during the game? For instance, why is the RA tag and the size tag so soiled with dirt stains? I have every Sox game on VHS from 03 and 04 and not once did his shirt come out that way exposing the size tag. Its not like Manny is Rickey Henderson.
2) How is there such heavy dirt staining on the back of the neck INSIDE of the jersey. How does this happen? All these theories out there, but can you answer that?
3) Find me one picture of Manny (just one) which shows that much use on any one of his shirts. The shirts may have been used in a game, but there is no doubt that they were rubbed up to appear more game used. The picture/video does not lie.

[Rob L]

Thanks all for the information. I took what was said and did purchase a ManRam gamer. This particular jersey shows the proper team issued tagging, minor staining on the sleeves that I assume would be related to a bat and an autograph to boot. This jersey is from the condo fire sale that Manny had in 2005.

Rob L