AMI Dan Marino

[lund6771]

AMI is offering an incredible Dan Marino jersey from 1994-95!!!!....it even comes with a letter from the team!!!

only problem is that it doesn't match up to the pics...whoooops!!!!

Notice the green and orange bands on the sleeves...not only are the size of these color bands wrong, the overall sleeve length is not even close...

they have a "personal" loa from Lampson as well...does that mean its even more worthless?

here are the links...lets see if it gets pulled!!!

http://www.americanmemorabilia.com/Auction_Item.asp?Auction_ID=38545


http://cache.gettyimages.com/xt/76783568.jpg?v=1&g=editorial5&s=1 (javascript:popDetail('76783568'))

[genius]

The AMI jersey looks like the throwback jersey they wore in two games that year.

[RKGIBSON]

Genuis,
I had noticed differences in the jersey, also from all the pictures on Gettey. This jersey also as a screened on name on the back. Where did you find pictures of a throwback jersey? Can you tell me the dates they were used?

Roger

[Eric]

Here's AMIs
6617

I'm wondering, what did AMI say when you contacted them about this issue. According to the forum rules, you must contact them first before calling something into question....

Eric

[Eric]

The Miami Dolphins wore the 1972 replica jerseys against the Minnesota Vikings. Hard to tell if the sleeves match.

http://cache.gettyimages.com/xc/358277.jpg?v=1&c=NewsMaker&k=2&d=17A4AD9FDB9CF193B3EA2C03450C94864498613AFE76B9D4

[genius]

Here's another link http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Stadium/3028/mia.html

Sleeves look correct, as does the Wilson "W" logo placement. Not sure about the nameplate.

[Eric]

The AMI Marino sleeves have 3 aqua stripes and two orange.

The link you sent has different sleeves- however Dan Marino had different sleeves from the other players....

How many stripes are in the Marino game photo vs the Vikings?

[genius]

I count three aqua stripes and though I can't really see the orange ones, that would mean there are two small orange ones. I distinctly remember that the 94 throwbacks had the same striping as the 72 Dolphin jerseys. I don't know that this is the exact jersey Marino wore in the Vikings game but it sure looks like a style match at least. Would love to find a nameplate shot from the Vikings game though.

[Eric]

On Marino's right arm, I count two aqua and one orange stripe. Are my eyes playing tricks on me?

[genius]

It's tough to tell. Looking at his right sleeve, going from right to left, I see a green stripe, then a thin white stripe, then a middle green stripe which looks like it might have orange on each side of it, then another thin white stripe, then another green stripe where the sleeve is cut.

[Eric]

I think the sleeves are similar to another jersey Marino wore in 1994

http://cache.viewimages.com/xc/354155.jpg?v=1&c=ViewImages&k=2&d=17A4AD9FDB9CF193B3EA2C03450C9486CAFAE565AFD57723 284831B75F48EF45

[genius]

That could be because the orange and green stripes are touching, eliminating some of the white space between them. I see two distinct small white lines on the right sleeve and a hint of orange in there. The auction jersey's right sleeve has the orange and green stripes touching.

[Moustache Gang]

Forum members,

What scares me on this jersey is not so much the stripes on the sleeve, which is very important, but the year tagging. It is very apparent that original numbers where written on the tag with a black "fine line" marker, then someone went back over the numbers with a wide black marker. If you look closely it appears as if the "3" in the # "13" has a flat right side. Could this have been a "7" and then touched up to become a "3"?? I for one, do not like how the "3" looks compared to the rest of the numbers. I am by no means an expert on Marino jerseys...this is just my Marino layperson's observation.

Mark


Always buying Oakland A's game used jerseys and equipment 1968 to 1976!!!

[CollectGU]

Mark,

That is the writing in the waistband of the pants and is not on the jersey.....

Dave

[RKGIBSON]

I will talk to Victor net week and get some specifics on this jersey. I spoke to him breifly yesterday and he was on his way to Cleveland, I think he said, to do a show.

The sleeve length is of concern. Marino seems to have always shortened his sleeve length.

I first thought the name was screened on. After looking at it I think it is sewn on. It is hard to tell. This is one things I will verify.

The throwbacks were used 9-18-94 vs the Jets and 9-25-94 vs the Vikings. There is one picture of Marino on 9-18 on Getty. It is a head shot and is attached. I attached the only picture that "almost" shows the name plate on a player and it looks to not be outlined with orange like the regular season uniforms are, a photo of that is attached also.

I am sure AMI deferred to the team paperwork on this jersey.

The fact that there is no pictures of Marino in this game makes me wonder if he played. I will try to check that out.

Roger

[mvandor]

Was a Joe Malinconico the Dolphins equipment manager in those days? A Google search turns up nothing NFL related on this name.

[Eric]

For a good look at the nameplate, check out Jim Yackel's Pete Stoyanovich 1994 Dolphins throwback he's selling here

http://jimyackel.com/nfl2.htm

http://jimyackel.com/10Stoyanovich3-06.JPG

[G1X]

Gentlemen,

One thing to keep in mind is that even if it is concluded that Marino did not wear the full sleeve stripe pattern of 3 aqua stripes and two orange stripes (that do not connect) in the Vikings game, he could have worn a different jersey in the 9/18/94 game against the Jet that had the full stripe pattern. If I were interested in the jersey, I would need to closely review game footage from both games to observe the sleeve stripes on Marino's jerseys. If anyone out there has either of these games on tape or a Dolphins' 1994 season highlight tape, please take a look and let us know.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

[RKGIBSON]

I spoke to Victor today on the Marino jersey. The following is what I found out:

The sleeves are hemmed on the bottom with a regular straight stitch.

The name on the back is stitched on.

The Wilson tag is in the neck with no date flags. The name plate stitches goes through the tag.

No photos were found. They looked on 2 sights. The team paperwork was deferred to. Lou looked at it and had some of the same questions but the paperwork is rock solid.

The pant are not thought to be from this year, at all.

I told him my main question was the sleeve length. As always he says "if I'm not comfortable with it don't bid".

Roger

[lund6771]

"if I'm not comfortable, don't bid"?????

what proof does the 100% team have that this shirt was worn by Marino?

anyone can take a letter and pair it up with a jersey...

Once again AMI is showing their high level of customer service by giving a great customer nothing more than a line...

couple this attitude with their photo shoots, it shows how classless this company really is

[Eric]

I spoke to Victor today on the Marino jersey. The following is what I found out:

Lou looked at it and had some of the same questions but the paperwork is rock solid.



So Lou couldn't solve the riddle YET he still writes a letter on it? I'd love to see a copy of it

Here are the letters of authentication for this item listed by AMI
Authenticators

PSA/DNA Auction House Letter (Read Details) (http://www.americanmemorabilia.com/Auction_Item.asp?Auction_ID=38545#)
100% Authentic Team (Read Details) (http://www.americanmemorabilia.com/Auction_Item.asp?Auction_ID=38545#)
Equipment Manager Letter
Lou Lampson Personal Letter

[lund6771]

Hi Roger...

I'm a bit confused...does Lou's "personal letter" state that he also has questions about the sleeve length?

[RKGIBSON]

I have personally never seen the large type Wilson tag in the collar. Sometime in the 90's they did put a small red "W" tag in the collar.

I did not take any offense to Victor's comments. I speak to him on a regular basis and find him quite engaging and knowledgable. Our conversation on this jersey was a lot more involved that I posted. The paperwork is why they took it. I wish we could find a picture of the missing game. Its hard for me to believe they had very many jerseys for 2 games, a game jersey and a backup. My guess is this is the backup, but who knows without visual proof.

Roger

[Eric]

Here's some pics from the other throwback game vs the Jets
http://cache.gettyimages.com/xc/352230.jpg?v=1&c=NewsMaker&k=2&d=17A4AD9FDB9CF193B3EA2C03450C948612E39D1E465C94C6
http://cache.gettyimages.com/xc/349015.jpg?v=1&c=NewsMaker&k=2&d=17A4AD9FDB9CF193B3EA2C03450C9486356DEB66E1F8392D
http://cache.gettyimages.com/xc/2666102.jpg?v=1&c=NewsMaker&k=2&d=17A4AD9FDB9CF1934A2752006EF5F0EDB4A64E480F124192 E30A760B0D811297
http://cache.gettyimages.com/xc/256578.jpg?v=1&c=NewsMaker&k=2&d=17A4AD9FDB9CF1934A2752006EF5F0ED84B0F0E940209AD3
http://cache.gettyimages.com/xc/72568386.jpg?v=1&c=NewsMaker&k=2&d=17A4AD9FDB9CF193875DCB1DD8387ABB368FBAD92543ABD0 4E9C89C783688B46

[CollectGU]

I'm confused. Jim Yackel's Stoyanovich jersey is supposed to be the throwback style worn that year but it seems incorrect based on this photo from Eric(unless he wore 2 different throwbacks for each game- one altered and one not altered although that seems unlikely)....The sleeves he is wearing in this photo match the ones on the Marino being offered...

Regards,
Dave

[CollectGU]

Eric,

Did you contact Jim regarding his Stoyanovich regarding the photo evidence you supplied? It probably would be the right thing to do....

Regards,
Dave

[Eric]

Eric,

Did you contact Jim regarding his Stoyanovich regarding the photo evidence you supplied? It probably would be the right thing to do....

Regards,
Dave

Dave-

You are the person calling Jim's jersey "incorrect." I simply provided game photos of the Dolphins Jets game from 1994. Again, how do you know that Stoyanovich didn't wear a different shirt in the other throwback game versus the Vikings.

We have seen that players are wearing Dolphins throwbacks with different sleeve designs. Why couldn't that be the case here?

Eric

[CollectGU]

Dave-

You are the person calling Jim's jersey "incorrect." I simply provided game photos of the Dolphins Jets game from 1994. Again, how do you know that Stoyanovich didn't wear a different shirt in the other throwback game versus the Vikings.

We have seen that players are wearing Dolphins throwbacks with different sleeve designs. Why couldn't that be the case here?

Eric


Eric,

You are right there is a possibility that he had a different jersey for each game and one he cut and one he didn't cut. We would need to find a photo of him in the Vikings game to be sure...

Regards,
Dave

[beantown]

I tried to help some of the forum members here by finding a picture of Marino in this jersey...I didn't find that but I found this and thought it looked very similar to the jersey being discussed, especially the nameplate...also jersey can be ordered in a length that would be considered "game cut"...thoughts anyone?

http://www.onlinesports.com/pages/I,MN-DOLP94T13.html (http://www.onlinesports.com/pages/I,MN-DOLP94T13.html)

[mvandor]

There are visible differences between a M&N retail and this jersey. First I saw was the placement and size of numerals on sleeves but I guarantee you the material would be noticeably different as well.

[lund6771]

a $200 jersey is now up to $3,500.00

sure feel bad for the poor guy who is about to waste their money on this one...

Dave O'Brien, how about asking you pals at AMI if they will refund the top bidder their money if I provide a video of the Jets game?

[lund6771]

http://www.gettyimages.com/Search/Detail.aspx?axd=DetailPaging.Search|1&axs=0|71466713%2c71466706%2c71466700%2c53341752%2c 76704916%2c51966704%2c51967034%2c358241%2c358183%2 c286175%2c286174%2c284400%2c53155437%2c52462645%2c 75445381%2c71700164%2c52754172%2c52754171%2c358565 %2c354922%2c352364%2c50730275%2c50730274%2c5073027 3%2c50730272%2c50730271%2c50730270%2c50730269%2c50 730268%2c50730267%2c50730239%2c50730238%2c358277%2 c358603%2c358698%2c358654%2c358601%2c358515%2c3541 55%2c260462%2c77164749%2c77164746%2c326551%2c76813 949%2c76813947%2c76783568|0&id=286174


here is the link for Marino against the Jets....FRAUD!!!!!!!!

[Eric]

The link you provided shows game photos from 94, yes, but Marino is not wearing a throwback there. In the next photo you can see that the nameplate shows their typical style, not the throwback
6801

[Eric]

Apparently they wore the throwbacks in the setpember 18th game vs the jets, not in the nov 27th game which you provided links to....

[CollectGU]

http://www.gettyimages.com/Search/Detail.aspx?axd=DetailPaging.Search|1&axs=0|71466713%2c71466706%2c71466700%2c53341752%2c 76704916%2c51966704%2c51967034%2c358241%2c358183%2 c286175%2c286174%2c284400%2c53155437%2c52462645%2c 75445381%2c71700164%2c52754172%2c52754171%2c358565 %2c354922%2c352364%2c50730275%2c50730274%2c5073027 3%2c50730272%2c50730271%2c50730270%2c50730269%2c50 730268%2c50730267%2c50730239%2c50730238%2c358277%2 c358603%2c358698%2c358654%2c358601%2c358515%2c3541 55%2c260462%2c77164749%2c77164746%2c326551%2c76813 949%2c76813947%2c76783568|0&id=286174


here is the link for Marino against the Jets....FRAUD!!!!!!!!

Pete,

Another incorrect photo.. You keep making claims that this jersey is bad using incorrect photos as your point of reference...

[mvandor]

Pete,

Another incorrect photo.. You keep making claims that this jersey is bad using incorrect photos as your point of reference...

How so, the pic is from Nov. 94, this is supposed to be a 94 worn throwback, and others have supposedly established they were worn in only two games in 94 of which the Jets game shown in the pic is one.

[mvandor]

How so, the pic is from Nov. 94, this is supposed to be a 94 worn throwback, and others have supposedly established they were worn in only two games in 94 of which the Jets game shown in the pic is one.

Never mind, I see the pic is from the wrong Jets game in 94, they played each other twice.

[lund6771]

i know...my mistake...i clicked on the wrong link when making my post...i will post a video link to the Home game against the jets...

this will prove that Marino never wore the AMI jersey...

will the high bidder get his refund?

[ducksdukes]

Noticeable on the AMI jersey is the abscence of the NFL logo shield. The dolphins did not wear the jersey with the shield in the 9/18/94 game versus the Jets or the 9/25/94 game versus the vikings. The AMI jersey appears to match the jersey worn by Marino in the 9/18/94 Jets game. It matches the 9/25/94 jersey worn against the Vikings. The sleeve striping is the same as well as the abscence of the NFL logo and the Wilson logo. The first attached photo is closeup from Jets game and the second is from Vikings game.

[ducksdukes]

Regarding prior post, the NFL shield logo is absent. The Wilson logo is present. The jersey offered by AMI seems to be an authentic match to jersey worn by Marino versus Vikings. The Mitchell Ness Jersey has NFL logo shield.

[ducksdukes]

Here are additional photos of other players. First is Stoyanovich for Jets game, same sleeve striping and no logo shield at neck. Next are photos from Vikings game which include Chris Singleton (no logo and you can see Wilson W on sleeve) and K. Byars w/ W on sleeve and no NFL shield logo on neck.

M & N jersey would not pass even if tags removed, added , etc. Fabric different as well as no spandex side.

[ducksdukes]

Oops! Here is Singleton photo.

[G1X]

It is difficult to see the sleeve-stripe pattern on Marino's jersey in the photo from the Vikings game. Who knows if Marino wore a different jersey in the Jets game (or more than one jersey in either game). We have had several folks in this thread be quick to criticize the legitimacy of the Marino jersey, but they have yet to provide visual evidence supporting their claim.

Personally, I have no comment on the authenticity of this jersey one way or the other because I am not interested in buying it so I have not bothered to perform any due dilligence. What does concern me is that there has been a lot of innuendo and 43 posts on this jersey, yet there is not one piece of solid evidence supporting either side of the argument.

Here are my thoughts. If you truly believe that an items is not what it is claimed to be, FIRST gather evidence and facts suporting your claim. SECOND, follow Forum rules and contact the Seller before posting in this Forum. THIRD, if you cannot follow these rules, the least thing you can do is carefully read what you have just written before hitting the "Submit Reply" button.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

[G1X]

P.S. I should practice what I preach (refer to my THIRD item in the last post). I'll leave it to you to find the typo! :o

[ducksdukes]

[quote=Eric;56089]The Miami Dolphins wore the 1972 replica jerseys against the Minnesota Vikings. Hard to tell if the sleeves match.

http://cache.gettyimages.com/xc/358277.jpg?v=1&c=NewsMaker&k=2&d=17A4AD9FDB9CF193B3EA2C03450C94864498613AFE76B9D4 Note: The TB worn during 1994 are not 72 Dolphin TB jerseys but actually 84-85 TB jerseys. The jersey in question has identical 84-85 sleeve striping. Hope this helps.

[lund6771]

I know someone who has an incredible video collection of NFL dvd's...let's put it this way, all most all of them...most of my collection is video matched

Whenever I am interested in a jersey I contact this person and purchase a dvd from him to attempt to video match football jerseys...

I e-mailed a close-up of the AMI jersey to him and asked him if he would match the sleeves for me...after looking at videos from both games he said that sleeves were much shorter in BOTH games than the AMI offered shirt...

I contemplated spending the almost $50.00 to post video links showing this...then I quickly realized a few things...chances are that the purchaser of the jersey would never be contacted and in 3 days this thread would be forgotten about...so why would I waste $50?...just to prove a shirt is no good that I'm not interested in purchasing?

How bout this....if AMI is interested in the 2 videos, to video match the Marino, I'm sure that the $50 to them would be $ well spent...I think video matching for style & wear would add a lot more value to this jersey than the $50.00...

I'm sure their buyer would be ecstatic!!!!

What do you say AMI...wanna buy the videos?

[ducksdukes]

Always looking for authentic Dan Marino game used items from impeccable sources. Cleats, jerseys, shoes, helmets, wristbands. Thanks

[lund6771]

Ducks...there is no question that Marino did not wear this shirt in either of the 2 throwback games....unless the guy that I use for video matching drank 30 beers that night and his eyes played tricks on him when looking at the sleeves

anyways...it won't make any diiference...auction is over with...just like their previous auction showed that there was a fake Brett Favre sold and we still haven't heard if there was a refund offered then

[G1X]

I have yet to view any concrete evidence in this Forum that Marino either did or did not wear the jersey in question. Further, I have not seen where any accuser has followed Forum rules and contacted the Seller with their concerns.

As previously stated, I could not care less about this jersey. However, I do care about the integrity of this Forum, and I find it terribly irresponsible to come here and make accusations without providing proof or following Forum rules.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

[ducksdukes]

Unless you obtain game used equipment directly from the athlete after a game it is impossible to 100% guarantee that the equipment was game used. Even COA from a team can be subject to scrutiny because you have to trust the reputation of the source.

Of course some equipment can be ruled out because of obvious irregularity. I have not seen any irregularity and/or discrepancy with the AMI Marino jersey to suggest it is anything less than what it purports to be. The photographs demonstrate that the AMI jersey is consistent with the photo of Marino during the Vikings game. This was a game that the TB Dolphin jerseys were used. The patch placement is the same, the sleeve striping is the same, the lack of the NFL logo shield is consistent and the W (Wilson logo) is in the proper position. Based upon the description of the item the collar has appropriate Wilson tagging, sleeves are cut to Marino specs with diamond pattern under the arms. Of course we would need to see the jersey to confirm the description with respect to these qualities but based upon what is visible between photographs, I do not see anything that constitutes an obvious flaw. If I missed something that is open and obvious, please advise.

With respect to video evidence, again it would have to be open and obvious. I am not sure how you can gauge sleeve length (unless huge discrepancy) without having the actual jersey instead of photo.

I believe the exchange of information is beneficial and thus we allow people to make informed decisions.

[lund6771]

This is the last time I'm posting on this topic...

Ducks...look at the pattern on Marino's right sleeve in the pic of the Vikes game closely...

from the bottom of the sleeve, the color bands go in this order:

1. green
2. white
3.orange
4. white
5. green

the sleeve pattern shirt that AMI did sell was as follows:

1. green
2.white
3. orange
4. white
5. green
6. white
7. orange
8.white
9. green

So, this eliminates the Vikings game...Ducks, the pic from the Jets game is only a head shot...the only thing that can be verified from this pic is that it correctly does not have the NFL shield...just because the shield is absent does not make the whole shirt a match!!!!...

I'm telling you guys...The Marino shirt from the Jets game does match the
Vikings shirt...and both don't match the AMI shirt

I think this forums accuracy is incredible and it's a good way for collectors to watch out for each other from all the scams out there...And there seem to be more scam artists in this hobby than in some dark alley...Mark, are you a dealer or a collector?......

I'm not preaching on a soap box...I call 'em as I see 'em...I don't have all day to e-mail people with issues within their own business...they can read it here for themselves...If you got a problem with that, request to have me banned...my motivation is to not see people getting screwed over

[genius]

In my opinion, worst-case scenario is that this is a team game-issued 1994 NFL throwback jersey to the exact specifications that were worn on the field minus cutting the sleeves, with some nice paperwork to back up the value. I doubt there are many jerseys like it and I think the final selling price would be worth it to some folks out there even if the sleeves weren't cut and Marino didn't actually wear it. For example, I'm from Pittsburgh and I've seen a lot of Lemieux so-called team issues (with no paperwork) go for about $1K and though I'm not an expert, $3K for a true team-issue Marino 94 throwback with team paperwork may be pricey but perhaps not unreasonable. The 94 throwbacks were cool! I think this Marino is a pretty good item and though AMI gets a fair amount of bashing here, I don't have too much of a problem with them deferring to the team paperwork considering the difficulty finding proof one way or another. Absolute conclusive evidence showing that it WAS a game worn item probably would have been reflected in a higher selling price. I hope the buyer liked the item, in the end that's what really matters, again in my opinion. Thanks!

[ducksdukes]

Lund6771,

The photo I posted of Marino is from 9-25-04 Vikings game. I printed the photo and used a magnifying glass. Look carefully, the photo shows the sleeve pattern as follows:
1. green
2.white
3. orange
4. white
5. green
6. white
7. orange
8.white
9. green

This is the same pattern as the AMI jersey. Bottom line is I am not trying to convince you. I am not defending AMI. I cannot confirm that the AMI jersey is the jersey that Dan had on his back. I am a collector. I think the golden rule in collecting is that collect what you love and if you have any question about an item, do not purchase it. You may be right, however the photos of the jersey match....in my humble opinion.

Does anyone have any info on equipment trainer who signed Dolphins COA. I am sure the 94 or 95 media guide identifies Equipment Managers and Assistant Equipment Managers. That information would be helpful.

Anyway, this thread may have run its course. Lund 6771 I appreciate your posts and think dialogue serves us all well.

Per my earlier email:
I am interested in Dan Marino game used items from impeccable source.....also collecting Roger Clemens game used items.

[ducksdukes]

The right sleeve is optimal for the sleeve striping pattern.

[ducksdukes]

The 94 TB jerseys used in the Vikings game was a TB to the 1984 Dolphins. Here is a photo of Dan on sideline. Of course the jerseys are not identical but the sleeve pattern is the same: Green white orange white green white orange white green. Just FYI.

I am curious about confirmation of identity of equipment manager.

[ducksdukes]

I hate to keep posting, but I should have done this in last post. Here are two pics next to each other. Marino vs. Vikes in 94 and AMI jersey. I also attached the 84 pic which served as model for 94 TB jersey. The right sleeve on Marino v. Vikes pic is the best to view sleeve striping. The left sleeve on AMI photo is the best.

[lund6771]

dukes...I'm not really sure where and how our opinions vary...

in the 84 pic you provided, if you cut half of the sleeves off then it would look like the Vikings game pic...

there is only ONE orange stripe in the Vikings pic...

videos will be coming soon

[G1X]

lund6771,

In post #51, you inquired whether I am a dealer or collector. I will answer your question with a question of my own. What does that have to do with the Marino jersey or this thread?

You have been complaining about this jersey for two weeks but have yet to provide evidence backing your claim. It sounds like you have not even viewed the evidence yourself at this point. How fair is that to any Seller?

How can a Seller agree to remove an item without being supplied with supporting evidence that the item is not as advertised? Furthemore, how can they be expected to remove the item if you do not contact them with your concerns? Surely you nor anyone else in this Forum can really expect a Seller to automatically remove a documented jersey from an auction or sale based on posts in this Forum that do not provide any concrete evidence that a jersey was not worn. And even if you did contact the Seller, don't you think that it would be wise to first have the evidence in hand?

I am not trying to beat you to death on this issue, I am just trying to make a point about fairness. If the jersey is not game worn as you claim, then do the right thing and gather the evidence and present it to the Seller. If I were buying or selling an item that wasn't what I thought that it was, I would hope that the good neighbors in this Forum would bring it to my attention. I would also hope that everyone in this Forum would want to be treated that way if they were in a similar circumstance.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

[ducksdukes]

Check this photo out. It is a photo of Marino with Pat Catello (Dolphins equipment manager in 80's). Looks like 94TB jersey.....same as AMI jersey. AMI jersey is looking solid.

[DR.P]

Hi Everyone,

I have been following this story, and figured I would share my insight. I had seen the Marino Throwback jersey in AMI and was so excited. As many of you may know, I have been seaching for the ultimate Marino, and had thought that I had finally found my shirt. The fact that AMI had it and it was not even advertised properly left me a little hesitant, but I thought I may be able to get lucky! I was prepared to go to the extreme to get this shirt, which if genuine could land in the 20K range. That being said, I started to research. I knew the only source to confirm the authenticity 100% would be to get in touch with Pat Catello, as he certainly is the Miami Dolphin supreme authenticator.I have since been in contact with people in the Dolphins and can confirm that the throwbacks were worn in 2 games only, 9/18 vs Jets (in MIAMI) and 9/25 vs Vikings (In MINN.), and that both of these jerseys were in fact owned by Mr. Catello, completely unwashed and PHOTOMATCHED to a tee! In fact the one worn vs. Minnesota has been put on display in the Miami Dolphins current Hall of fame in the stadium by Pat as he is going to be placing his entire collection in the new Dolphins Hall of Fame which will be lodged in the stadium when construction is finished. One of this forums users has posted a photo of Pat with this shirt. This has all been confirmed by Pat, and he has a radio show on Monday nights in which he allows equiptment and collectible questions. I will be calling in this week and hopefully will get to talk to him personally. Needless to say I have been deflated! However, just another sad story in the current state of this hobby and these auction houses! But one thing is for sure, this board is awsome!

[lund6771]

Dr.P

what do you consider being the "ultimate"?

if you are looking for a REAL GAME-WORN jersey I can help you with that...

what is your e-mail?

Pete

[DR.P]

Pete,

I tried to send you a PM but your account was not accepting them? You can send me one if you'd like. An "Ultimate" Marino to me would be an unwashed Photomatched jersey with a Letter from Pat Catello (A must!)
Marc

[lund6771]

Dr.

contact Chris C. and he will give you my cell #...

[ducksdukes]

Guess what I found....ain my collection....a game photo of Dan in the 94 TB jersey. The AMI jersey is an exact match with the photo. I am still investigating the equipment manager but Lund....the jersey is an exact match. You can search film all day long....jersey is photo match.

[CollectGU]

Wow...great photo find that proves he is wearing this style jersey. Pete I would like to see this supposed video you have that disputes this picture.

Regards,
Dave


Guess what I found....ain my collection....a game photo of Dan in the 94 TB jersey. The AMI jersey is an exact match with the photo. I am still investigating the equipment manager but Lund....the jersey is an exact match. You can search film all day long....jersey is photo match.

[CollectGU]

Even the distance between the numerals on the sleeve and the start of the stripes appears dead on....

[Eric]

Guess what I found....ain my collection....a game photo of Dan in the 94 TB jersey. The AMI jersey is an exact match with the photo. I am still investigating the equipment manager but Lund....the jersey is an exact match. You can search film all day long....jersey is photo match.

great photo. Am I wrong or does the AMI jersey have no white border between the teal and orange on the shoulder numbers and the game photo does.

I don't know how to compose a side by side comparison- can anyone help?

Also, the sleeve striping on the AMI jersey is perfectly alternating where on the game photo the orange seems to be hugging the teal right above it.

Just my opinion, but I think you might have proven that the marino sold by AMI is not the one in the game photo because of the numbers and striping of the left sleeve...

Could it be a backup jersey?

[genius]

The stripes do not match up with the game photo, plain as day. Style match only. Probably an "extra" jersey, I don't think the final price was too unreasonable. Would have gone for a lot more with a definite match.

[ducksdukes]

great photo. Am I wrong or does the AMI jersey have no white border between the teal and orange on the shoulder numbers and the game photo does.

I don't know how to compose a side by side comparison- can anyone help?

Also, the sleeve striping on the AMI jersey is perfectly alternating where on the game photo the orange seems to be hugging the teal right above it.

Just my opinion, but I think you might have proven that the marino sold by AMI is not the one in the game photo because of the numbers and striping of the left sleeve...

Could it be a backup jersey?

Spacing between the stripes is the same. Keep in mind that Marino is wearing the jersey with pads. In other words the jerseys is stretched as opposed to photo of just jersey. Striping is identical. Again, that does not confirm that it is the same jersey....but it confirms that photo is identical match. I think if Catello verifies equipment manager identified in AMI Coa then highly probable that the jersey is authentic. I have a contact who will attempt to verify info with Catello next week.

[Eric]

Can someone put those photos side by side so we can see the striping on the left sleeve?

And what about the white border in the shoulder numbers?

[ducksdukes]

Hope this helps.

[ducksdukes]

There appears to be no separation on AMI jersey. but look at photos of back of jersey. That is what I was referring to earlier, it can be deceptive to look at jersey and not take into consideration that separation will be more evident when stretched with pads. The photo of the back of the jersey shows separation.

[genius]

The "W" looks to be touching the orange outline of the number in the game photo. Looking at the back of the jersey in the auction listing, there looks to be a space between the W and the number on the left sleeve. A great jersey though even if it wasn't actually worn!

[Eric]

There appears to be no separation on AMI jersey. but look at photos of back of jersey. That is what I was referring to earlier, it can be deceptive to look at jersey and not take into consideration that separation will be more evident when stretched with pads. The photo of the back of the jersey shows separation.

Honestly, I don't know what you're talking about. Looking at the AMI jersey, the stripes on the left sleeve (if you were wearing the jersey, it would be your left sleeve) are evenly screened.

The right sleeve, if you were wearing the jersey had the stripes screened slightly off.

Those match the corresponding sides in the shot of the back of the ami jersey.

And they don't match the corresponding sleeve in the autographed photo you were kind enough to post.

To say it a different way, the spacing on the stripes on Dan Marino's left sleeve in the autographed photo don't match the photo of the ami jersey

[G1X]

Here are several issues to ponder:
1. Can anyone tell for sure from the auction house photos (or asked the question during the auction) whether the auctioned jersey has satin shoulders or mesh shoulders?
2. Does the bottom tip of the "V" of the neck collar of the auctioned jersey touch the horizontal shoulder seam as seen in the Getty photo from the Jets game and ducksdukes photo, or is there a gap?
3. Has anyone established for a fact that Marino wore only one jersey in the Jets throwback game, and only one jersey in the Vikings throwback game the following week? (Players have been known to change at halftime.)

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

[Eric]

Here's a shot of the Marino with the contrast levels changed. Does this help establish where the 'v' touches the horizontal shoulder seam?

7025

[Eric]

7024

[mvandor]

Look at the W's verticle placement on Marino's left shoulder, it's higher in the pic than on the AMI, or at least appears that way to me.

However, I agree there could be multiple jerseys involved over those two games...

[genius]

Just a quick comment to say that I am finding this thread to be very fascinating. The possibility of two jerseys during a game is a great twist to this "hunt"!

[lund6771]

Wow...great photo find that proves he is wearing this style jersey. Pete I would like to see this supposed video you have that disputes this picture.

Regards,
Dave


Good news....the videos that I ordered last week from the 2 games just came to my office...I will view them when I get the chance later and post back

[ducksdukes]

Check this out. This is from American heritage Galleries in Dallas. The reason I post this with photos is because description said it was obtained directly from Pat Catello w/ LOA from Lampson. It is an 85 jersey...and it went for under $6k. My question is......how does an 85 Game Used jersey go for under $6k if it is from Catello ? I am looking for rational of people submitting responses that if the 94TB jersey was an actual gamer it would have went for a whole lot more. This is the most expensive Marino game jersey I have seen. I read where someone said they would pay $20k for a Marino gamer. I have trouble believing that and I have not seen the market dictate a price for a Marino jersey.

I am looking for feedback because as I have indicated in other postings, I am interested in Marino and Dolphin Game Used items from impeccable sources. I am trying to determine what is range for such items. Your responses are appreciated.

Below is ad for jersey. Note: they sold SB helmet for a little over $20k



1985 Dan Marino Game Worn Jersey. The earliest Dan Marino jersey we've ever handled, and certainly the finest as well. Thi...
Track this lot.
Add a note about this item
















View Larger Image
Sold for: $5,377.50 (includes BP) Bid Source: Internet
Ended: May 5, 2006
Buyer's Premium: 19.5% of the successful bid (minimum $9.00 per lot)
Auction Name: 2006 May (HSC) Signature Auction #704
Auction Type: Signature (The floor auction is being held in Dallas, TX on Saturday, May 6, 2006. Online bidding ends at 10:00PM CT the night before the floor session for this lot. Your secret maximum bid will compete for you during the floor auction, and it is possible that you may be outbid on the floor after internet bidding closes.)
Number of Bidders: 7

Description
1985 Dan Marino Game Worn Jersey. The earliest Dan Marino jersey we've ever handled, and certainly the finest as well. This spectacular white mesh Miami Dolphins gamer dates from the newly inducted Hall of Famer's third season in the League and shows appropriate quarterback wear, with some contact "dings" particularly noticeable on the rear nameplate. The jersey body is white mesh, which has discolored somewhat over the years. It has a cotton stretch ribbed v-neck and a full compliment of sleeve stripes. As was Marino's styling fashion during his early career, the sleeves have been cut right to the edge of the lowermost sleeve stripe. The alpha and numeric identifiers are correct in their screened-on application. The numerals are aqua and orange and the mesh nameplate features "Marino" in single color aqua, plain block font. The font was unique to the Dolphins at the time and the plate is in proper position approximately 1/4" above the major horizontal transverse seam. All identifiers and correct in their size, position, color hues, font style and affixing style. The lower left front tail sports the "Russell Athletic" red, white and blue label in size "XL." Most Dolphins' jerseys of the era sported labels with non-numeric size designators. Marino has autographed the jersey on the back numeral in perfect black sharpie, and provided an inscription referring to 1985 gamer status and year stats, reading "1985 Season, 4137 YD / 30 TD." Obtained in the 1990's at the height of "screened-on" hysteria from Dolphins' equipment assistant and guru Pat Catello. LOA from Lou Lampson. LOA from PSA/DNA.

[ducksdukes]

Helmet was $33k...sorry.

[CollectGU]

Good news....the videos that I ordered last week from the 2 games just came to my office...I will view them when I get the chance later and post back

Pete,

Can you also look into the Stoyanovich jersey mentioned in the thread that is being offered by Jim Yackel and let us know if it matches the Minnesota game. We know it doesn't match the Jets game already...

Thanks,
Dave

[lund6771]

will do Dave...but I think you should start a new thread on that one

Pete

[lund6771]

Last night I had he chance to view the Dolphins game vs the Jets in Miami...with 100% ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY I can tell you that Marino DID NOT wear the AMI jersey in this game...

I viewed every dolphins offensive series' from both halves to make sure that there wasn't any jersey switching throughout the game...

Here the issues that are absolutely conclusive:

1. In the video, Marino's right sleeve was cut wide open...aka flared open...Difficult to tell from AMI's photo, but their discreption states that both sleeves are open

2. In the video the Wilson logo on the left sleeve does indeed touch the #1...The AMI Marino has white spacing between the two

3. The pattern of the stripes on the sleeves is also different. The AMI shirt has equal sepration between the orange, white, and green...the video shows that the orange stripe is almost touching the green stripe...just like Ducks' picture shows

4. Marino is definitely wearing a jersey with mesh shoulders....the AMI is of dazzle cloth....this one alone disqualifies the AMI shirt

5. Also the bottom of the "V" in the collar difinitely hits the horizontal seem in the video..The AMI shirt does not


Once I get the chance, I will view the game against the Vikings and post the results...

[DR.P]

The Throwback jersey Dan Marino wore against the Vikings in 1994 is owned by Pat Catello and is on display in the Dolphins Hall of Fame. It is unwashed and has a mark on the back #1 almost like a fold, clearly noticable on the game film and on some cards as well. Catello also has the Jets jersey which is also unwashed, full of DIRT stains all over it and matched up to the game throughout all 4 quarters! One jersey worn in both games and neither one is the jersey that AMI is offering! Talked to his agent and was told he may address this issue on his radio show this Monday night.

[ducksdukes]

Dr. P, curious did you get a $20k jersey from Lund ? I am interested in purchasing a Dan Marino gamer but the highest price I have seen is $5k (see above). I wast just curious b/c your last post said you were willing to drop $20k.......where did you get that figure. Lund responded by telling you to call him...so I was wondering if he has access to Marino gamer ?
Thanks

[lund6771]

ducks...

i do have a marino in my collection but it is "technically" not for sale...it is always hard to judge the true market value of something that is 100% real...I paid more than 5 for my Marino because it is 100% real, game used, and video matched....but no, Dr. did not buy my jersey

I will be posting later what I find in the Vikings game

[ducksdukes]

Lund:

Thanks for the reply. I am just trying to gauge the market for Marino game used items. You input was appreciated. I guess the rule is the value of the jersey is what someone is willing to pay for it.

I am in the process of compiling a year by year catalog of photo references for Marino game used items. I wish I was able to obtain from Fins their records for Marino equipment.

ALways on the lookout for Marino Game Used Items from impeccable sources!

Thanks!

[lund6771]

ducks...

there is something coming up for sale that I want really bad, so I might be selling my Marino to raise funds...can't have everything!!!!...if interested, Chris C. will give u my cell #....

[DR.P]

What I stated, which is clear if you read it, is that I would be interested in buying Marino's THROWBACK jersey, and yes, I think it is worth 20K, there are only 2 in the world! That is what this post was originally about, wasn't it? All of a sudden, everyone feels that any Marino jersey is worth the same price and is offering to sell theirs. I would still love to buy THAT shirt, but we have accomplished the location of it, Catello/Dolphins, and it is not for sale. This was what AMI fraudulently offered!!

[CollectGU]

DR. P,

Can you ask Pat to send you pictures of the jerseys and have them posted here so we can view them and check them against the photos and video evidence?

Thanks,
Dave

[DR.P]

I am working on it. I spoke to his agent last week and requested that. He is supposed to address this on his radio show Monday after he interviews Don Nottingham if there is time. I tried to call in last week but could not get through. If I receive them, I will post them. The picture that is posted here with him, shows him hi=olding the Minnesotta game jersey.

[CollectGU]

I'd like to see the Vikings one especially to compare it to photos we have. In the one he is holding in the picture( which is the Vikings one right?) it seems the anniversary patch is sewn much closer to the numbers than in the photos we have of that game. I look forward to seeing what you can get us.

Regards,

Dave

[DR.P]

I will try my best to get pics of the Vikings game jersey. Talked with the Dolphins earlier in the week, but they are impossible to deal with.

[lund6771]

Tonight I viewed the Dolphins-Vikings video from 1994...

Again, with 100% certainty, the AMI jersey does not match the jersey that Marino wore that day...

the jersey that Marino wore against the Vikings is basically the same as he wore against the Jets..the only difference is the location of the "w" logo on the sleeve...thus Marino did were a different jersey in both games

unless the Dolphins wore these jerseys in a THIRD game, this jersey was only touched by Marino to autograph it

I also did a search for equipment manager Joe Malinconico, who signed the letter...internet searches list Bob Monica listed as equipment manager and nothing comes up for a Joe Malinconico

Can someone help me with posting links for my "suppossed" videos?...they are on a disk now

[mvandor]

Tonight I viewed the Dolphins-Vikings video from 1994...

Again, with 100% certainty, the AMI jersey does not match the jersey that Marino wore that day...

the jersey that Marino wore against the Vikings is basically the same as he wore against the Jets..the only difference is the location of the "w" logo on the sleeve...thus Marino did were a different jersey in both games

unless the Dolphins wore these jerseys in a THIRD game, this jersey was only touched by Marino to autograph it

I also did a search for equipment manager Joe Malinconico, who signed the letter...internet searches list Bob Monica listed as equipment manager and nothing comes up for a Joe Malinconico

Can someone help me with posting links for my "suppossed" videos?...they are on a disk now

I mentioned earlier I did the same Google on the equipmet manager and came up empty. Would love to see if the name means anything to Catello.

Any possibility they got the year wrong and this jersey was from the following year? Sometimes jerseys carry over from the season of issuance if they're still in solid shape.

[lund6771]

jersey can't be from another year because it has the 75th anniversary patch....And 1994 was the first year that teams started wearing throwboacks...

This jersey was NEVER worn in a game...

[CollectGU]

Tonight I viewed the Dolphins-Vikings video from 1994...

Again, with 100% certainty, the AMI jersey does not match the jersey that Marino wore that day...

the jersey that Marino wore against the Vikings is basically the same as he wore against the Jets..the only difference is the location of the "w" logo on the sleeve...thus Marino did were a different jersey in both games

unless the Dolphins wore these jerseys in a THIRD game, this jersey was only touched by Marino to autograph it

I also did a search for equipment manager Joe Malinconico, who signed the letter...internet searches list Bob Monica listed as equipment manager and nothing comes up for a Joe Malinconico

Can someone help me with posting links for my "suppossed" videos?...they are on a disk now

Pete,

Anything on the Stoyanovich?

Thanks,
Dave

[lund6771]

didn't look at the Stoyanovich...this thread is about AMI Marino

[ChrisCavalier]

didn't look at the Stoyanovich...this thread is about AMI Marino
Hello Dave,

I think what is being referenced in the quote above is the forum rule about no topic changing. This thread is intended to discuss the Marino jersey. If you would like to discuss the Stoyanovich jersey please feel free to start another thread about it. Otherwise, please make sure posts on this thread relate to the Marino jersey.

Thanks in advance for your cooperation.

Sincerely,
Chris

[DR.P]

I've got the photos!! I just received the photos of the actual Throwback jerseys worn in the Vikings game and the Jets game from Pat Catello's agent. I know I was a bit of a pain in the neck pursuing them, but thanks so much Alice, and of course Pat, for letting us view these, as it is truly appreciated! I am not the best at working with computer photos, but I will do my best to post these.
I was given some information as well... Both of the Throwback jerseys are unwashed. The Vikings game was worn on Turf, so there is obviously no major dirt stains, however the most noticeable marks are a fold type mark on the back #1 and a turf/helmet burn on the front #1. These can be seen in the game film. I was also told there are some Viking remnants visible on this shirt as well. The Jets jersey still has all the dirt marks throughout the jersey. I viewed the Vikings jersey at the Miami Dolphins stadium and remembered the fold mark. This is the ONLY year Marino ever wore a throwback style jersey. They also sent a photo of the pants Marino wore. As far as I am concerned, this issue has been put to rest! I am interested to hear if Pat mentions this on his radio show tonight.

[CollectGU]

Hello Dave,

I think what is being referenced in the quote above is the forum rule about no topic changing. This thread is intended to discuss the Marino jersey. If you would like to discuss the Stoyanovich jersey please feel free to start another thread about it. Otherwise, please make sure posts on this thread relate to the Marino jersey.

Thanks in advance for your cooperation.

Sincerely,
Chris

Chris,

The Stoyanovich jersey is absolutlely relevant to this thread as it was used as a reference point in the thread for proper NOB fonts for these jerseys. Don't you think it relevant to verify the jersey being used a reference point if you have that capability and if you are going to use the jersey as a reference. If this is where it was referenced, I don't see how it isn't relevant to this thread....

Dave

[lund6771]

Dr. P...

Interesting pictures...another difference between Pat's jerseys and the phony AMI is the Wilson tag in the collar...I remember when Wilson switched from the larger Prestige tag to the smaller W tag...

I have never seen the Prestige tag in the collar...can you imagine how uncomfortable it would be on the back of your neck with that big tag rubbing on you?

Anyone from AMI care to comment?

[lund6771]

Dave...

your attempts of throwing out smoke screans are not working so quit trying to send this thread into a different direction

The jersey that AMI has put into the market is fake...

[mvandor]

Some pretty nice detective work done in this thread. We have some persistent guys here, don't we? :)

[kingjammy24]

can anyone ask pat catello or the dolphins if they've ever heard of joe malinconico ? when was catello the equipment manager?

i'd like to know if the letter is fishy (no pun intended).

rudy.

[kingjammy24]

funny but it seems someone recently asked this question:

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Miami-Dolphins-283/DOLPHIN-EQUIPMENT-MANAGERS.htm
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Expert: Eran - dolphinsinfo.com (http://www.allexperts.com/ep/283-12604/Miami-Dolphins/Eran-dolphinsinfo-com.htm)
Date: 10/28/2007
Subject: DOLPHIN EQUIPMENT MANAGERS

Question
Was Joe Malinconico an equipment manager or an assistant equipment manager for the Dolphins in either 1994 or 1995 ? Thanks

Answer
Hi Kevin
The Dolphins list Tony Egues as the team's equipment manager for 1995 and Bob Monica as team's equipment manager for 1994. I don't have the listing for assistants to the equipment manager in 1994 and 1995.

Eran
http://www.dolphinsinfo.com (http://www.dolphinsinfo.com)
---------------------------------------------------------------------

in the letter, joe calls himself the "equipment manager", not an assistant.

the only joe malinconico i've found is a writer for the new jersey star ledger:
http://www.nj.com/newarkguide/index.ssf/2007/10/mass_transit_a_big_hit_with_pr.html

rudy.

[ducksdukes]

I sent the request to all experts regarding Dolphins equipment managers.

[lund6771]

In Post #56, I stated that I did not want to waste $50 proving that AMI put another fake jersey in the market because I felt that no good would become of it...

Well a few buttons were pushed so I did go out and get the videos and they 100% proved that Marino did not wear the jersey that AMI sold...

Dr. P has also spent a lot of time rounding up pictures from Pat Catello who has both jerseys...this was also verified by the Dolphins themselves...

There is also now a strong possibility that the LOA was a complete sham as well


So now the question is...where is all of this headed?

Why has there been no response from someone within AMI on this?...Dave O' Brien is always quick to chime in with erratic posts...where did he go?...he's not on vacation because he's posting on other threads...Do they think that by being silent, that the wind will blow this away?

For the record...this thread will not go away unless the administrators lock it up...to much effort has been put in to let this thread fade away

Is this considered fraud since there has been no recourse?...should this info be sent to someone?

[kingjammy24]

the auction just ended. i'm guessing it's possible that AMI has not paid the consigner yet. (by some accounts, it may be months before that
happens). in an ideal world, AMI would examine the substantial evidence presented in this thread and possibly halt the transfer of the jersey and any funds until they've reached a conclusive verdict. this strikes me as the ethical, responsible thing to do. apparently video evidence has determined it's not the jersey.

i admit to having a small fascination with the letter. tony egues can easily be googled as can bob monica. there are several articles about them all over the internet. according to the dolphins website ( http://www.miamidolphins.com/newsite/contacts/administration/admin_egues_t.asp )

Egues "..was named as assistant equipment manager in 1994 and then was promoted to head equipment manager prior to the start of the 1995 season."

i'm guessing then that in 1994 bob monica was the equipment manager and tony egues was the assistant. in 1995, egues was made head equipment manager.

despite the fact that egues, monica, and catello are all over the internet, there isn't a single blurb anywhere about anyone named joe malinconico.

keep in mind that the AMI letter was supposedly written in Nov 1994. in the letter, malinconico states that he was the "Equipment Manager of the Miami Dolphins during the 1994-95 season [this might be news to Bob Monica]. I was fully responsible for the handling of all game equipment."
the letter is then signed "Joe Malinconico, Miami Dolphins Equipment Manager". note that malinconico says he was fully responsible and doesn't say he was an assistant.

if it can be determined that noone under the name "joe malinconico" was ever employed by the miami dolphins in the equipment department, then the letter is also complete sham. it seems finding out this info would be even easier than locating tapes of the '94 throwback game. if the letter ends up being bogus, then it's apparent that noone at AMI even bothered to verify the letter and just took the thing at face value, as if it's difficult to obtain team letterhead and write up some nonsense. i will try to contact the dolphins to verify the employment of "joe malinconico" as equipment manager during the 94/95 season. i'm genuinely interested in whether AMI was completely scammed by a bogus letter.

rudy.

[kingjammy24]

the current equipment manager for the dolphins has been with the dolphins equipment staff for the past 14 yrs. that goes back far enough for him to remember a joe malinconico. i'll send him an inquiry as well as a copy of the AMI letter and see what he says. will report back when i hear back.

rudy.

[lund6771]

Rudy

any word from the Dolphins on the mystery Equipment manager?


And Dave....what was the outcome from AMI on this?

[ducksdukes]

Malinconico was the equipment manager during the 1994 season. He resigned/terminated from the Dolphins after the 1994 season. It is my understanding that there were some alleged "discrepancies" about how game used equipment, including Marino items were being handled.

[lund6771]

interesting...

[ivo610]

As a rather new member I have learned more off this thread on NFL jerseys than any of the other ones I have come across. When I first came to this board I had a pretty good level of trust with auction houses and what they offer, now not at all.