Something's Fishy with CSI game used bats!

[gameused]

Fellow forum members,

I have noticed for over a year now that a lot of game used bats from California Sports Investments have some similar traits when it comes to ball marks. Check out the following pics of bats offered on ebay by CSI in the last year.

You tell me how all these bats used by various MLB players on different teams have almost identical superficial ballmarks and no deep seam indentations to the barrel area? Is this a coincidence, I highly doubt it! I await your comments.

Bobby

Heres are the links to the ebay auctions:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180133043549
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180121358512
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180127719926
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180142525809
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180125106526

[gameused]

Here's three more! Notice the Vladimir Guerrero bat, where are the deep seam indentations? I own two Vlad game used bats and they both have the deepest seam marks I have ever seen on a bat.

[gameused]

Heres the links to the three bats:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180148735990
http://cgi.ebay.com/Miguel-Tejada-Orioles-Game-Used-Louisville-Slugger-Bat_W0QQitemZ180162043325QQihZ008QQcategoryZ60596Q QssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180140531928

[sylbry]

The ball marks on the Bako and Tejada bats indicate they were used by a right handed batter. Yet both players bat left handed.

[skipcareyisfat]

Those marks must be from that new "mud" they're using.

[Rboitano]

Thats who I was reffering to in my post about the Ripken bat. Every bat I have seen them offer has had the same "golf ball" size ball marks.

[OaklandAsFan]

The ball marks on the Bako and Tejada bats indicate they were used by a right handed batter. Yet both players bat left handed.


ummmm it has been awhile since he was in Oakland but Miggy did bat righty when he was here.

[gameused]

Here's an Arod bat for sale on the CSI website:
http://www.californiasportsinv.com/details.php?prod_id=483&sportid=1

[sylbry]

ummmm it has been awhile since he was in Oakland but Miggy did bat righty when he was here.

Yes sir, you are correct. I read the stats of the person next to Tejada. My mistake.

[jon_8_us]

Not only are the ball marks the same but the bats are presented in the same fashion in the photographs.Seems the whole thing is planned.Is anyone willing to contact Ron fron CSI to inquire?
Jon

[kingjammy24]

the identical appearance of ball marks looks odd to me. perhaps it would be best for people to post photos of other game used bats of tejada, sosa, guerrero, beltre, sheffield, etc to see if any patterns emerge. if people post 7 photos, for example, of different heavily-used tejada bats from different sources and they all show relatively similar ball mark placements, etc and those placements differ wildly from CSI's tejada then that might lead to some conclusions. it shouldn't be hard to get a good number of photos of these bats. in-action photos which clearly show the use on the bats would also be helpful.

rudy.

[kingjammy24]

tejada from john taube:

http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/7559/tejadasj2.jpg

rudy.

[bigtruck260]

OK - I am a Cardinals guy, so here is an expamle of a CSI BAT vs. a Bat for sale on eBay...See if you can figure out the difference - though it is pretty obvious! The model is a JD Drew RAW/AD in black....

Dave

[bscott]

Seeing the bats all next to each other like that is very telling.

I agree: there is an IMPLAUSIBLE UNIFORMITY to all of the "baseball marks" on those bat barrels!

The question is: could/would game used baseball bats used by all of those players look that similar? if so, how is that possible?

Maybe the "source" that "produced" these bats could shed some light.



-bscott.

[PudgePollyMillerFan]

Wow...that is some scary stuff there......waaaaaaaay to many similarities between the bats.....I have seen a lot of game used bats in my time, but none that have the same "obvious" use patterns on them......I think I will be staying far away from that company!

[cards-bats]

Now I know why the Cardinals can charge $500 for a Aaron Miles game used bat. I give up!

[richpick]

Bobby,

Good work and what a keen eye. Thanks for the heads up. It will be interesting to see what CSI has to say. Is anyone going to contact them?

Richard

[kingjammy24]

i put all the barrels together so you can see them side-by-side.

http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/3903/batln6.jpg

i'm no bat expert but that looks like some really wacky stuff.

rudy.

[lund6771]

i guess a leopard never does change his spots

[gameused]

Bobby,

Good work and what a keen eye. Thanks for the heads up. It will be interesting to see what CSI has to say. Is anyone going to contact them?

Richard

Richard,

There were many more bats that I seen from CSI on ebay with similar ballmarks before I started saving the ebay auction links from earlier this year.

As far as contacting Ron from CSI, I think he already found out about this post, check the CSI link from my earlier post for the Arod bat he had listed on his website, he took down the listing sometime today.

Maybe Ron should Change his company name from California Sports Investments to "Completely Shady Inventory"

Bobby

[cigarman44]

Yeah those look pretty bad. It looks like they bunted about 30 ab's in a row with those bats. The speed of the ball with the swinging of the bat makes a much larger ball impression. That's why I buy most 80% of my bats from people on the board (mostly Jeff :D ). Before I got into this I thought if you had a high eBay rating you must be trustworthy. It's a good thing I found this site. Sure enough I'd have a bunch of fakes.

[Eric]

Who contacted Ron about these issues?
Eric

[eGameUsed]

Unfortunately, I purchased that black Arod bat yesterday from Ron. That is likely why it came down off the site. He probably doesn't know, but I will be evaluating the bat once received at it should have shipped yesterday.

Thanks,

[bigjimsguitars]

While I'm new to this forum, I started collecting GU a long time ago and can remember selling some nice bats to Ron, one being a GU Piazza Minor League bat and an Eddie Murray bat from the Dodgers and found him to be honest and paid me fairly for both items.

Note: I recently rekindled my passion for collecting again so many of the veterans here don't know me, but back in the late 80 to mid 90's I was doing this and back then it was a whole bunch more level of a playing field as the average joe (like me) was able to get honest stuff. I'm sure that there were many fakes being dealt back then, but I was able to get my stuff directly from the likes of the Dodgers, Angels, and various minor league teams on a regular basis. Moreover, there were many Legit Dealers who had the goods who advertised in the SCD.


I also recently acquired a Dodgers GU Jersey from him that I later confirmed as being the real deal from the actual player who wore it (and signed it for me).

There has to be a plausible explanation for all of this as a good seed doesn't usually go bad. It would be nice if gets wind of this thread and responds.

[kingjammy24]

bigjimsguitars

i guess you were away from the hobby for awhile but back in 2005, ron publically admitted to shill bidding on ebay. the "good seed" did indeed go bad. here's his apology:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/379976/thread/1120867150/

the last couple of pages in this thread have a discussion about it:
http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=8955

i remember once discussing a will clark jersey with ron. i was earnestly trying to ascertain its legitimacy and asking many questions. i was seriously interested in purchasing it. ron said it was good as he "wouldn't risk his reputation on a $300 jersey". but apparently he'd risk it to fraudulently jack up the prices on his auction items? listening to ron talk about how he "wouldn't risk his reputation" after he'd already risked it (and lost) was the best joke i'd heard that month.

anyway, in general, most scamsters mix crap in with the good stuff. it makes it harder to spot the bad stuff and makes the entire operation look better. if it were all crap, it'd be too obvious right? instead, you do a few legit signings, have your photo taken with some athletes, and everyone thinks you've got connections and all of your stuff is legit. sell some legit pieces and you get people talking about how your stuff is good and it gives you the luxury of pawning off garbage based purely on the reputation of your good stuff. even the worst scamsters i know offer some good pieces. i've never seen anyone stupid enough to offer nothing but 100% garbage.

rudy.

[3arod13]

It amazes me, and sickens me, reading so many of these type threads.

It really bothers me to see so many sports fans and collectors spending their hard earned dollars wanting to own a piece of their favorite player, and not knowing that people like these are selling them fakes. Is it just that there isn't really enough game used stuff out there to satisify all fans and collectors, or is it just simple GREED!

Why can't people just make a good and honest living!

I'm getting so sick of reading the stuff in these threads. For those of you out there reading this, and doing this, STOP!

Regards, Tony

[3arod13]

It also really bothers me that when sellers of fakes are made aware that the item is fake, they still continue to ignore the warnings and sell their item (which I'm sure many know they're selling fakes, so I don't see why they would listen anyway).

Are there any websites where collectors can go to find a list of people and/or companies who are doing this? Might be helpful.

[3arod13]

It also really bothers me that when sellers of fakes are made aware that the item is fake, they still continue to ignore the warnings and sell their item (which I'm sure many know they're selling fakes, so I don't see why they would listen anyway).

Are there any websites where collectors can go to find a list of people and/or companies who are doing this? Might be helpful.

In the Norfolk, Virginia area, we have what we call "OFF LIMITS LIST." The Admiral in our area will be notified of those business' in our community who are ripping off our Sailors, or even just bad places to stay away from, and the Admiral sends out a list to all military commands letting them know that these places are "OFF LIMITS" to all military personnel.

Just a thought.

Regards, Tony

[bigtime59]

The members of the Orioles Hangout forum, many of whom routinely excoriate Paul Bako as the worst player ever to have worn an Orioles uniform, would be highly amused at the prospect of someone faking his game used bats...

Mark
bigtime39@aol.com

[bigjimsguitars]

All I can say is wow, times and people do change and if what I read here, one guy that I thought was a straight arrow. I'm lucky that what I got turned out to be jake.

I can't speak for Ron and hope he comes forward and speaks for himself and explains his side of this. But after reading his apology in 2005, I would bet we will not here from him.

[Eric]

Again, did anyone contact him with their concerns?

[bscott]

if no one else did, i just sent an email via ebay to let him know of this thread.


-bscott.

[calsportrf]

I appreciate those individuals who have contacted me personally so that I can be aware of what has been written about me.

I know the backbone of our hobby is trust. In the past I made a mistake and came on this board to explain and apologize. I did not run...I owned up to it. Sometimes you still are not forgiven and I understand that. I probably will get hammered for even stating again my apology.

One thing that I will not accept is when people say items I sell are not authentic. There have only been 3 cases when an item I sold was returned to me for lack of authentication and I returned the customer's money. Only one of those cases involved a bat. It was one that was returned since the cleat marks on the barrel were not consistent with the player in question. I refunded the money and chalked it up to a bat that was probably used by another player.

For 13 years I have purchased jerseys, bats, batting gloves, shoes etc. directly from teams and players. Only on a few occasions have I purchased from dealers (Ball Park Heroes and MeiGray) and those have been for my collection. Everything I sell comes directly from legitimate sources.

My best sources are within baseball since I work with teams and players. Most of you know my contacts since you often ask if I get can items in the future from these teams/players. I have never had a question on any jersey I have sold. On bats, if they are not signed, they usually have not come from that player directly but either from a team clubhouse source or another player.

People often ask, "why don't you have more items or items from different teams." That is because I do not have contacts with all the teams and also because I do not accept items that do not appear to have use. I DO NOT get mint bats and sell them as gamers. First off, I do not want teams and or players to get in the habit of selling unused items to me..I only want items with use. Many of you know why I gave up purchasing directly with one current superstar because he wanted me to buy items that were not really used. I gave up purchasing from him although many said I was not too bright because it was not worth the backlash.

With regard to the bats, I get a lot of bats with different evidences of use. Over the years I have sold hundreds of bats and have not noted the types of use they have. I do see how the ones chosen for this site have consisten type of marks but I have a lot of bats here that are different. I do not only use ebay as a marketing tool. I have a website as well and sell off that too. There are a lot of examples of bats that I do sell and have sold that show varied types of use. To single out a few is not representive of what I have sold.


I am not going to come off arrogant and brush off the questions of you by saying I am above it all. I do care about this hobby. Is is not only a business of mine but my passion as well. There are several individuals who get hammered on this website and never explain their situations.

I understand many will never forgive me for my admission about the eBay ordeal and I guess I can understand that. I know some will find something about this post to complain about; however, if you ask any player that I have delt with they will share with you that I really do purchase REAL items and they are authentic. I have been in the hobby for 13 years now and one thing I am proud of is that I have always prided myself on selling items that I honestly believe were real.

Thank you for your consideration.

[3arod13]

calsportrf.

Myself, I appreciate you coming into this forum and expressing yourself.

Unfortunately, we live it a society today where once you do wrong, people never forget and are always on their guard. This I guess is understandable. Also, with the amount to fakes out there, and the tremendous knowledge of many in this forum that is shared, I believe everyone looks very hard at everything out there. If something doesn't look right, it's questioned.

I'm not as knowledgeable as many in this forum, but when I looked at all the many different bats from different players posted in this thread, I thought to myself that they all looked identical. To me, that also looked odd. It looks as if all of those bats were used at the same time, the same way.

If it's one thing I learned in this forum from Eric, accussations shouldn't be made or posted against someone until facts are gathered. If someone desires to question and/or discuss problems with GU stuff, they should be discussions and not attacks against the seller, unless proven.

I believe that the goal of everyone in this forum is to help protect the integrity of the hobby. For that, I commend all.

I don't have any answers, because even as you stated, sometimes you can't even trust some of the players.

Regards, Tony

[kingjammy24]

ron,

i'm confused by your explanation of these bats.

"I do see how the ones chosen for this site have consisten type of marks but I have a lot of bats here that are different. I do not only use ebay as a marketing tool. I have a website as well and sell off that too. There are a lot of examples of bats that I do sell and have sold that show varied types of use. To single out a few is not representive of what I have sold."

if i'm understanding your explanation correctly, your points are that you have other bats that show different types of use and that singling out 6 odd bats isn't representative of your total stock. if i'm correct, i fail to see the relevance of those points. you have tons of bats and not all of them are odd. that's fine, noone said or implied otherwise. as well, noone said these bats are representative of your total stock. people are just perplexed with these 6 odd bats. 6 bats, from different players, different teams, and different years, and yet they all show almost identical use. saying you have 300 other bats that are different doesn't address the issue with these 6. if i have 300 jerseys, for example, and 6 of them have wash tags sewn on top of the seam, then what sort of explanation is it if i say "oh well i have tons of other jerseys and singling out these 6 garbage ones isn't representative"? it doesn't do a thing explain the 6 garbage ones. a jersey with a tag sewn on top of the seam is garbage whether it's the only jersey i have or whether i have 300 other legit ones. your other bats have no bearing on why these 6 look identical.
these 6 bats look bad but hey, when you put them alongside your other 300 bats, all of a sudden they're good?

rudy.

[kingjammy24]

ron i forgot to thank you for coming on this board and addressing this issue. there's one other point i forgot to mention. you said

"I did not run...I owned up to it. Sometimes you still are not forgiven and I understand that. I probably will get hammered for even stating again my apology.
One thing that I will not accept is when people say items I sell are not authentic. There have only been 3 cases when an item I sold was returned to me for lack of authentication and I returned the customer's money."

a few of us have been wondering, in terms of not running, owning up to your mistake and refunding money, did you refund all of the money to the customers who were the victims of your shill bidding? that is, did you refund them the extra amount that they ended up paying because of your shill bidding? or did you keep that money? i'm assuming, from your ebay history and your own records, you knew exactly which auctions you shill bidded on and by how much so you could easily have contacted each person and refunded them some money. i'm just curious if this happened.

thanks in advance,

rudy.

[cigarman44]

True, Saying you have other bats that don't look like these doesn't really answer the question. You can tell me that they have "real use" all day long, but between the way those bats look and your past shill bidding I won't be looking at any of your stuff. Kind of the same answer you gave in your apology.

[bigtruck260]

Accusations are accusations. Based on the evidence I have seen in photos, and from the other collectors here, I personally am going to steer clear of CSI. No offense Ron, but it is very irregular for an adult to change behaviors overnight...unless there is a near death experience or hard prison time. I am an educated person outside of my naive tendencies toward this industry. People generally do not change.

[lund6771]

was there ever a response made by Ron about the Dallas Cowboys throw- back jerseys in the 90's

[Eric]

was there ever a response made by Ron about the Dallas Cowboys throw- back jerseys in the 90's

Does this relate to the topic? There is a rule about no topic changing. Please explain what this is in reference to..

[lund6771]

Eric...

why is this considered topic changing?..even though it was originally about bats, Ron came on and attemped to dispell any unethical actions..this thread is obviously about Ron and not just these specific bats

It has been brought about before how Ron sold these double star Thanksgiving shirts...I won't spend the time trying to find the ads in SCD, but he sold a bunch of shirts that WERE NOT game used cowboys jerseys...he would never have been exposed unless one of his customers spent thousands of dollars exposing him in the SCD...this was pre internet..now it happens here for free...

Were all of these jerseys from the players?...good one

Ron...you can't get a little bit pregnant...so you either come clean all the way, or your name will continue to be bashed...by posting your silly post you keep digging yourself into a deeper hole

[bscott]

Nothing irritates honest game-used collectors more than crooked sellers.

What I find particularly irritating about this episode is CSI's reluctance to admit the obvious: that these particular bats appear to have been tampered with. The photograhic evidence is strong.

OK, so CSI truly believed that these bats were "real" game used items. But if that isn't ultimately the case, shouldn't the buyers be notified and offered a refund?

No one accused CSI of taking these bats to a little league field for some twilight BP. All I wanted from CSI was an honest and open reply that conveyed the possibility that these bats could be bad. The photos surely suggest that they may be no good.

This debacle could have been an opportunity to come clean and offer refunds. Instead, CSI draws out the matter, hiding behind a rambling diatribe about honesty and integrity. CSI's "non-denial denial" reads like a thinly veiled admission of guilt, without the offer of a refund to any buyer who might have been duped.

"The backbone of our hobby is trust."
-CSI



-bscott.

[gameused]

Unfortunately, I purchased that black Arod bat yesterday from Ron. That is likely why it came down off the site. He probably doesn't know, but I will be evaluating the bat once received at it should have shipped yesterday.

Thanks,

Chris,

Did you receive the Arod bat from CSI, if you did, what is your opinion on the bat and can you post some pics?

Thanks, Bobby

[eGameUsed]

Bobby,

I received the bat yesterday. I am very confused on this and have not decided what to do. The bat has some great seam marks on the top side of the barrel. But scattered around those seam marks are the golf ball sized "ball marks." I will post some pics when I get home tonight; hopefully displaying both the seam marks and "ball marks."

Thanks,

[chakes89]

Seeing as how this thread is now some what relevant to discussion, the ball marks on the original bats in question appear to be from making contact with balls pitched at low speeds. More specifically, contact with rubber batting cage balls thrown at batting cage speeds (60-80mph)

Here are some pictures of a black Louisville Slugger M9 that I used almost exclusively at a local batting cage until its untimely demise after meeting with a 90 mph fastball :(

Note the ball marks on my bat and their similarities to the bats in question:

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j225/chakes89/008-5.jpg
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j225/chakes89/005-5.jpg
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j225/chakes89/004-5.jpg

(My ball marks are better :D)

[jppopma]

Nice work Chakes. Looks like you gave that pitching machine a workout and kept it alive by fouling off at least 20 pitches....just kidding man.

I remember this thread any thinking that it was something they used on training balls to show the marks on bats better and study where the balls are being hit. Did the pitching matching you used have the white dimple balls or real baseballs?

I guess that leave to wonder, what is the life cycle of a bat....game used, then for some BP, and then finish off it's life in the cages? I guess each player is different; some recycle bats for these other duties and other may have special bats they use for each.

[chakes89]

The machines have balls like this:

http://lh4.googleusercontent.com/public/UUPVGydmG0LY77uMcS_eOUQ-f2VSQSivrGHOrntTnwUIzaK4zOzjtz0owhlouKmCMxyb4yGu97-_hMGMd439cB0UrRq3ven56U2LFo8qdor_FI0SFM5IOR2riyHSP bxECotVDEN5ltV-C4OY-bAsYZ9Pf_MZOG9buwnuWQw0FF8yhqbcp-egPkRy6je7OgCDrd_aAeSdkQ_bO0ZG1OF6ZzE1ZL3FZjvuTrW1 U9redBUaPV8ULUQv8N38PhJZF51P2ZWV4o6f1cMphbMMEBkR4c OX2DNnNBk9C0yaxaAO59AaLn5m

[Nnunnari]

I just came across this thread. I will echo Chakes point that those ball marks are from bp. I have noticed that about Ron's bats before. The players could have sold Ron bp bats but who knows what is going on there, I have had nothing but good experiences with him.