Fake WFL Southern California Sun jersey?

[HassanWM]

Having had the wonderful honor to learn some stuff from WFL master Mark Hayne, this one is red-flag-fest:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&Item=320166454765&Category=86829&_trksid=p3907.m29

Don't think I am truly the one to say, but as far as I know, this shirt is not as advertised.

[hblakewolf]

Having had the wonderful honor to learn some stuff from WFL master Mark Hayne, this one is red-flag-fest:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&Item=320166454765&Category=86829&_trksid=p3907.m29 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&Item=320166454765&Category=86829&_trksid=p3907.m29)

Don't think I am truly the one to say, but as far as I know, this shirt is not as advertised.

Hassan-
You are indeed indicating/saying there is a problem with this shirt, simply by making this post and noting that it is not as advertised.

Joe at B & E is a very stand up seller, and if you discuss a problem with him, I'd be willing to bet he would address it.

What specifically is wrong with the shirt?

Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

[both-teams-played-hard]

Having had the wonderful honor to learn some stuff from WFL master Mark Hayne, this one is red-flag-fest:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&Item=320166454765&Category=86829&_trksid=p3907.m29

Don't think I am truly the one to say, but as far as I know, this shirt is not as advertised.

This is a retail shirt. However, this is not a "fake". You should be careful about running around willy-nilly calling something a "fake". Yes, it is not as advertised, but it is highly irresponsible for you to proclaim this jersey as a "fake". The term "fake" implies that this item was altered to deceive or appear to be something it isn't.
Hope this helps!

[HassanWM]

This is a retail shirt. However, this is not a "fake". You should be careful about running around willy-nilly calling something a "fake". Yes, it is not as advertised, but it is highly irresponsible for you to proclaim this jersey as a "fake". The term "fake" implies that this item was altered to deceive or appear to be something it isn't.
Hope this helps!
My apology for the wording. I was thinking it is a retail jersey, but not game worn. No team wore the WFL patch on the shoulder on the field. Also, Sand Knit jersey sizes, as far as I know, were numerical.

[otismalibu]

The term "fake" implies that this item was altered to deceive or appear to be something it isn't.

Isn't listing a retail shirt as a gamer, some level of deception? Isn't the seller trying to convince buyers that this item is something it is not? Would a retail jersey fetch that amount?

If no one seems to mind that something is "not as advertised", I've got a few Sand-Knit retail jerseys in my closet that I may have to list on eBay.

[both-teams-played-hard]

Isn't listing a retail shirt as a gamer, some level of deception? Isn't the seller trying to convince buyers that this item is something it is not? Would a retail jersey fetch that amount?

If no one seems to mind that something is "not as advertised", I've got a few Sand-Knit retail jerseys in my closet that I may have to list on eBay.
I admit that I was a bit abrasive in my reponse to Hassan. I'm glad he pointed out this jersey to the forum. I don't like the term "fake". It is especially difficult to call this WFL jersey a "fake", with all the short-sleeved Mannings and Jordan junk out there.
But, I'm willing to admit that I'm wrong and to change my terminology...in my opinion the jersey in question is indeed a "fake". It has a sophomoric added and removed NOB. Now, it takes an email to B&E to end this auction. I bet B&E will not accept payment for this shirt (too much to lose). This seems like a really high price for this jersey (correct me if I'm wrong.) Most of the WFL jerseys that I've seen have sold for less than $1,500. Can some WFL collectors give an update of recent prices for game used jerseys?

[G1X]

This is a two-part post so I hope you have the time and patience to read it. The first part is about the jersey in question, the second part is an episosde that illustrates both the positive and negatives in sharing information with others in the hobby.

In case anyone cares to know, the Southern California Sun jersey listed on ebay is not a game-worn jersey. There are a lot of things incorrect about the jersey that makes it nothing more than a very inaccurate replica.

The 1974 magenta colored Sun jerseys had white numbers trimmed in orange. The middle sleeve stripe was white with a smaller orange trim stripe on each side of the white stripe. In 1975, the Sun jerseys differed slightly as they added a small white stripe to the end of each of the orange stripes. In other words, the stripe pattern from top to bottom in 1975 was small white, small orange, wide white (middle stripe), small orange, small white. And as Hassan accurately stated, no WFL team wore the league patch on their jerseys.

Surprisingly, there are some replica jerseys that exists for this league with most being poor or inaccurate reproductions made back in the 1970s. They are usually very easy to spot. Collectors such as Hassan who are aware that I started collecting WFL jerseys after the league folded in 1975 and have a wealth of reference material on the league (photos, game film, ownership over the years of jerseys from nearly every team, etc.) will occasionally approach me for my opinion. What I find disheartening is that the information I share occasionally falls on deaf ears, especially when collectors/dealers/auction houses/GUU Forum members/ebay sellers hear what they were hoping not to hear.

What makes it all worthwhile is when collectors do listen and avoid making huge mistakes which is what Hassan did when contemplating the purchase of a replica Portland Storm jersey being offered for sale last March. After Hassan forwarded photos of the jersey, I provided information to both Hassan and the Seller indicating that it looked to be a mediocre replica at best. Hassan assessed the facts provided and smartly passed on making the purchase.

A few days later, the Seller posted the jersey on ebay with the headline description saying that it was a game-worn jersey. While the text of the description left one scratching their head wondering whether it was or wasn't an actual Storm jersey, I was particularly disgusted at the ebay listing, especially since the Seller was well aware of the several major flaws with the jersey (including the wrong number font and incorrect neck/collar) and had been supplied several game action photos so that he could clearly see the proper number font. I even reviewed game film for the Seller just to be sure that no Storm player wore this style of font.

To make matters worse, the Seller mentioned to me at one point that it appeared that the tail tags may have been doctored. In our last email exchange, he asked me if I thought that it could at least be a salesman's sample. I told him that if it was my jersey, I would simply list it as a replica. Lo and behold, the ebay listing appeared a few days later with little of my information included.

I called the Seller immediately and asked what the heck he was doing as I thought that he had agreed that it was a replica at best. He stated that he saw nothing wrong with listing the jersey as game-worn in the headline title since he went on in the text description to point out that there were some issues with the jersey (such as the font). Hassan and I still beg to disagree with the Seller's assessment as we felt that the headline title was indeed misleading and the text only muddied the waters.

The story ends on a happy note. MEARS ended up with the Storm jersey and listed it for sale on their website. I told Troy Kinunen about the problems with the jersey and presented him with the same evidence I presented Hassan and the ebay seller. Troy wasted no time in immediately doing the right thing by removing the jersey from the MEARS website.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

[HassanWM]

What I find disheartening is that the information I share occasionally falls on deaf ears, especially when collectors/dealers/auction houses/GUU Forum members/ebay sellers hear what they were hoping not to hear.
Precisely why I posted this here. I mailed the seller through ebay on Sunday, put this up here yesterday, and guess what? This jersey is still there. What gives???

Mark, that Portland Storm jersey situation looks surreal now, if you know what I mean...

[HassanWM]

Allow me to correct myself, I e-mailed the seller on Saturday. Still up there more than three days later...

[G1X]

Hassan,

It looks like your efforts paid off as B&E did the right thing and removed the Sun jersey from ebay. A tip of the hat to you, B&E, and MEARS (Troy removed the Portland Storm jersey from their website as mentioned in my previous post) as actions such as these are great for the health of the hobby.

On the other hand, shame on the Seller of the Portland Storm jersey for the less than forthright ebay description of the jersey (refer to my previous post).

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

[flaco1801]

yes. the jerseys get removed, but they are not destroyed. they should be stamped(you insert phrase) if found lacking in authenticity. they will pop up somewhere else again. would be a good idea if a seller had the right to stamp a piece if cosigned and found unoriginal. that might stop a few from cosigning suspect goods to legitimate dealers, would also make the dealer a hero when auction is stopped and piece is stamped "replica".

[G1X]

The jerseys don't need to be destroyed, they simply need to be presented as what they are - replicas (poor replicas at that). The problem is not with MEARS, B&E, or anyone else who has jerseys such as the replica Storm and Sun jerseys in hand (or any replica for that matter). The problem is the people who take these items and put them up for sale without fully and honestly disclosing all the known information about these jerseys. Again, hats off to B&E and MEARS for removing these jerseys once they were presented the facts, and shame on the Seller of the Portland Storm jersey for his ebay listing.

Once the Storm jersey was listed on ebay as game worn in the headline title description, the listing was less than forthright in my humble opinion, especially since the Seller had been presented photos and facts about legitimate game-worn Portland Storm jerseys beforehand. (To clarify my previous post, the Seller first approached me through this Forum asking questions about the jersey.) Even if the jersey wouldn't have been listed in the title as being game worn, Hassan and I still would have had a problem with the listing as the description gave the impression that the jersey could have been/may have been/maybe wasn't/possibly was/but then again, maybe not/etc.

I was so disheartened when I saw the ebay listing of the Portland Storm jersey. But as previously stated, at least there is a good ending to the story.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

[flaco1801]

dont be so naive. you show a dealer something he can make money on,chances are they see the prospects of a payday. they are dealers first, maybe a collector, second. they might do a quick check if they have time. find the team colors, look at the label for the time period, then its off to the presses for sale. if nobody complains its a payday and the buyers remorse. these jerseys will be for sale again, maybe in a memorabilia shop, or even in an auction.

[both-teams-played-hard]

The Medalist Sand-Knit tags were introduced a few years after the WFL disbanded. It is up to the buyer to do some research. In my opinion, B&E didn't know any better, because they did not research the item. If this jersey comes up for auction again, it's still a replica. No one should spend $2,400 because they trust the seller. Some folks make mistakes cause they don't know better. Buyers make mistakes, as do sellers. How much is a real SoCal Sun jersey worth, anyway? Are some WFL shirts worth more than others?

[G1X]

flaco 1801,
I am a dealer, so please don't insult me, my ethics, or my intelligence as your rash statement about dealers is off base and unfair to those of us who try do the right thing.

BTPH,
The WFL jerseys have the exclusive Sand Knit tagging as shown in the below two photos. As can be seen, there are slight variations on the size tag as some show the numbered size in parenthesis and some do not. Also note that the tags are sewn-on differently on each jersey pictured (only the sides of the tags are sewn in the first photo). You are correct in that the particular style of Medalist tag seen on B&E's replica Sun jersey is a tag style introduced a few years after the WFL folded.

I agree with you and flaaco that items, for which a Seller may have little or no knowledge, are sometimes placed for sale without performing the proper due dilligence. In this instance, my beef isn't so much with B&E as at least they removed it once they were presented with the facts. My disgust is with the ebay Seller of the replica Portland Storm jersey who contacted me about the jersey through this Forum and was provided with facts and photos before posting it on ebay. Why did he bother asking me in the first place?

The prices on WFL jerseys are all over the place. I have picked up some in recent years for as cheap as $100 and have seen others go for over a grand. There seems to be not much rhyme or reason to the pricing. Some teams are much harder to find than others, yet it is not necessarily reflected in the prices.

The Sun jerseys are more common to find than most teams. One dealer has a magenta-colored Sun jersey on their price list at $1,200, but in my humble opinion, that is the extreme exception for a Sun jersey of a common player. Generally speaking, expect to pay between $150 and $500 for most teams unless it is a well-known player such as Danny White (Memphis Southmen).

Feel free to contact me if you or anyone else needs more information as I have a wealth of reference resource material on the league, the manufacturers (only about half of the teams used Sand Knit), and personal experiences from collecting WFL jerseys and memorabilia for over 32 years.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

[both-teams-played-hard]

Generally speaking, expect to pay between $150 and $500 for most teams unless it is a well-known player such as Danny White (Memphis Southmen).



Yes, all the WFL jerseys I have seen have sold for very reasonable prices. As you said, I have seen a few star players sell for a little over a grand. I collect basketball jerseys of oddball and obscure teams. The WFL is right up my alley, as far as football goes. It seems after 30 years, there would be more interest in the league from collectors. I guess the collectors live in the shadows, but get great deals on the league's memorabilia! I was watching (and forgot to bid on eBay) a SoCal Sun double knit sideline warm-up with the same Sand Knit tags that you posted. It sold for $60. That's so cheap for something so rare! I am a graphic art buff and dig the far out colors of the WFL teams.
I am very fond of the documentary about the WFL, that used to play on ESPN Classic regularly. Does anybody remember when the ESPN classic sports network played classic sports?

[HassanWM]

flaco 1801,
I am a dealer, so please don't insult me, my ethics, or my intelligence as your rash statement about dealers is off base and unfair to those of us who try do the right thing.
I will vouch for Mark because he is speaking the truth. Mark is in a class of dealers who absolutely believe in only fully fair, legitimate transactions. His integrity is in the class of MeiGray, at the very least. Some dealers believe in fair transactions, to the fullest degree, and they are an asset to this hobby beyond our expectations. Jim Yackel is another. I will admit, I've been saved from my own self by such kind people who took the time and interest to make sure I don't get ripped off.

For those who want to see a real 1975 So Cal Sun jersey (same year Anthony Davis played), here is one worn by "Mad Bomber" Daryle Lamonica, his second to last pro jersey...

http://inlinethumb24.webshots.com/23127/2589682470079142834S600x600Q85.jpg

Thank you for pointing out the size tags, Mark.
http://sports.webshots.com/photo/2589682470079142834NjPGzR%5D%5BIMG%5Dhttp://inlinethumb24.webshots.com/23127/2589682470079142834S600x600Q85.jpg

[G1X]

Hassan,

Thanks for the kind words.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

[cohibasmoker]

Many, many years ago, I sent Murf Denny a pile of authentically tagged salesman sample jerseys. They were priced and advertised by Murf as salesman sample jerseys and they were selling pretty well.

Well, as the hobby goes, a couple wound up being advertised as “game used” so what did we do? Murf marked the inside of the remaining jerseys with either “Sample” or “R” for replica. The result? Very few of the remaining jerseys were sold and I got most of the remaining jerseys back.

What did I do? I gave them away as Christmas (sorry if I offended anyone on the forum by using the term Christmas) gifts.

Jim