Dave Groltz jersey on ebay - BEWARE!!!!!!

[sylbry]

I won a Twins game used jersey on ebay last month. The seller sold it as a Dave Groltz game used jersey. Knowing the Twins recycled jerseys I bid on it believing the seller had done the research to know this. I won the jersey. Out of curiousity I emailed the seller after the auction closed asking how he knew it was worn by Groltz. He responded that Groltz wore #30 which was the number on the back of the jersey. However the jersey had an obvious number change, different last name on the back, and missing the patch.

I made the decision to not pay because I didn't want to buy a jersey that wasn't as advertised and received a non-paying bidder strike. I felt bad not completing the sale (I have over 1,000 completed transactions on ebay) but it was better than having to file a complaint with paypal.

Seller has now relisted the jersey. I emailed the seller telling him to stop defrauding people. Here is his reply. "Did I say I have proof???? I stated I thought it was worn by Dave Groltz."

Here is the listing. You make the call.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150166595572&sspagename=ADME:X:RTQ:US:11

[ironmanfan]

Never heard of Dave Groltz

[bigjimsguitars]

Never heard of Dave Groltz

The OP must have been drinking a "Grolsch" when he typed in Groltz, err, I mean Goltz.

If the jersey is from the year stated, then it more than not be a Goltz jersey that did get passed down and as such the new name.

I would have completed the deal or at least asked the questions before bidding....

[bigjimsguitars]

I just read the verbage in the listing that you were the winning bidder on...and the sellers clearly stated that he only thinks it was Dave Goltz's Jersey.

Yes, the title say Game Used Goltz, but that is to attract attention to the listing and the actual description trumps the title.

I also noticed that you neg'd the seller...why? Yes, I know you contacted him and all, but really...

Chances are it's really a Goltz Jersey and from what I recall of Dobbin's. he was a straight shooter...

[bigjimsguitars]

I hope I didn't come off too strong in my last post, but I have strong feelings about leaving Neg's...

Anyway, here's a link that covers the 78 Twins roster:

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/teamstats/roster.php?y=1978&t=MIN

As you can see, the only player who in 1978 wore #30 was Dave Goltz and since the jersey has the proper tagging for 1978 one would have to believe that it was indeed Dave Goltz's at some point.

However the typical thing the Twins did when recycling jersey's was to put a nameplate over the original players name. But that is not an absolute and it's very possible that this uni got a formal name change.

The other possibility is that it got a number change and since the twins didn't tag in the number in their tag coding, it would only be evident if a closer inspection of the jersey was performed...which it would need anyway to verify if a name change occurred.

Maybe a Forum member will get it this time around and the CSI can be discussed as it would add to the knowledge base which we can all go with in the future.

[sylbry]

Dave Goltz, sorry.

I hope you are kidding about believing it is an actual Goltz jersey.

The number zero is not original. Notice the three is a little smaller and shows more wear. This is consistent with my other 1978 Twins jerseys. Not always did they change both numbers and not always did the minor league team use the exact same sized number. Therefore the seller's assumption that it was worn by Goltz is false.

The Twins did not use nameplates in 1978. It is possible to tell who originally wore the jersey based on stitchmarks which is why I thought it could have been worn by Goltz. I assumed the seller was able to read his name.

The seller says it was from Dick Dobbins. Maybe he purchased it from him but not as a Goltz gamer. If he had a letter I would have loved to see it.

Since when can you list something as one thing but describe it as another. That is nothing short of misleading.

As far as leaving a neg, isn't that what the system is for? I fully expect to receive one in return. I would have not even bothered until I received an email from the seller with some rather foul language telling me to leave ebay.

I take full responsibility for not doing my research beforehand. However, I am not about to complete a sale for something not as described. What is the point? I would have just filed a complaint with paypal afterwards if I had paid for it.

I did send an email detailing why this jersey could not have been worn by Goltz and I did intend on reimburing the seller for lost ebay fees. However if he didn't try to mislead in the first place we wouldn't be having this problem.

My intention of this thread is to warn the handful of other Twins collectors who visit this board. Don't make the same mistake I did.

[bigjimsguitars]

Dave Goltz, sorry.

I hope you are kidding about believing it is an actual Goltz jersey.

The number zero is not original. Notice the three is a little smaller and shows more wear. This is consistent with my other 1978 Twins jerseys. Not always did they change both numbers and not always did the minor league team use the exact same sized number. Therefore the seller's assumption that it was worn by Goltz is false.

The Twins did not use nameplates in 1978. It is possible to tell who originally wore the jersey based on stitchmarks which is why I thought it could have been worn by Goltz. I assumed the seller was able to read his name.

The seller says it was from Dick Dobbins. Maybe he purchased it from him but not as a Goltz gamer. If he had a letter I would have loved to see it.

Since when can you list something as one thing but describe it as another. That is nothing short of misleading.

As far as leaving a neg, isn't that what the system is for? I fully expect to receive one in return. I would have not even bothered until I received an email from the seller with some rather foul language telling me to leave ebay.

I take full responsibility for not doing my research beforehand. However, I am not about to complete a sale for something not as described. What is the point? I would have just filed a complaint with paypal afterwards if I had paid for it.

I did send an email detailing why this jersey could not have been worn by Goltz and I did intend on reimburing the seller for lost ebay fees. However if he didn't try to mislead in the first place we wouldn't be having this problem.

My intention of this thread is to warn the handful of other Twins collectors who visit this board. Don't make the same mistake I did.


The main problem with Twin's Jersey's from this era is that they do get sent down to the minors and things due happen to them. Yes, the twins didn't use a NamePlate, but my experience is that when they get passed down it is much easier to just apply a nameplate over the original moniker.

The listing did indicate that it once had a nameplate...

Your eye is much better than mine with respect to the numbering, but if what you say is so, wouldn't have that been a red flag to you not to bid?

If we assume that the 3 is original then it could have been any of the following players:

#30 Dave Goltz (http://www.baseball-almanac.com/players/player.php?p=goltzda01)#31 Darrell Jackson (http://www.baseball-almanac.com/players/player.php?p=jacksda01)#32 Bob Randall (http://www.baseball-almanac.com/players/player.php?p=randabo01)#33 Dave Edwards (http://www.baseball-almanac.com/players/player.php?p=edwarda01)#33 Mike Marshall (http://www.baseball-almanac.com/players/player.php?p=marshmi01)#34 Jose Morales (http://www.baseball-almanac.com/players/player.php?p=moraljo01)#36 Jeff Holly (http://www.baseball-almanac.com/players/player.php?p=hollyje01)#37 Roric Harrison (http://www.baseball-almanac.com/players/player.php?p=harriro01)#38 Geoff Zahn (http://www.baseball-almanac.com/players/player.php?p=zahnge01)#39 Stan Perzanowski (http://www.baseball-almanac.com/players/player.php?p=perzast01)

Some are pretty strong on their own merits!

Again, I apologize and am really not trying to be a smart guy and maybe am playing too much of the devil's advocate in an effort to keep this on a level field.

Personally, you had more rights if you had of completed the transaction as then you would have had an opportunity to 411 the jersey and then if it was not jake flip it back to the seller with objective facts and not mere subjective and things may have turned out better for both sides of this.

Heck, maybe it is really a Goltz after it was all said and done.

Personally I think Neg's should be utilized only as a last resort and especially on this one where you didn't do the due diligence before hitting the bid button.

[sylbry]

If my neg prevents someone else from getting ripped off on that jersey then it was well worth it.

[bigjimsguitars]

If my neg prevents someone else from getting ripped off on that jersey then it was well worth it.

So you are 100%, absolutely sure it cannot possibly be a Goltz Jersey? The 30 on the front looks to be unaltered, albeit the 0 on the back has been replaced....could have it been replaced due to a rip or defect?

Look, I believe your heart is in a good place, but at the same time, what if your wrong on it and have been the prosecuting attorney, judge and jury on it without ever seeing it in hand to have real emperical evidence of what is or isn't.

I really feel that your best move was to complete the deal as then you would have been in a perfect position to tell the tale of it. As it stands now, you have only possibilities of it not beeing the real deal.

[sylbry]

So you are 100%, absolutely sure it cannot possibly be a Goltz Jersey? The 30 on the front looks to be unaltered, albeit the 0 on the back has been replaced....could have it been replaced due to a rip or defect?

Look, I believe your heart is in a good place, but at the same time, what if your wrong on it and have been the prosecuting attorney, judge and jury on it without ever seeing it in hand to have real emperical evidence of what is or isn't.

I really feel that your best move was to complete the deal as then you would have been in a perfect position to tell the tale of it. As it stands now, you have only possibilities of it not beeing the real deal.

Look, I really do not care what you think about how I handled a transaction. I don't care if you think my heart is in a good place. I don't care what you think my best move was. I certainly am not looking for your blessing. Let it go.

This thread was meant to warn people who may have been interested in the jersey. Nothing more, nothing less.

After 15 years of collecting Twins jerseys I felt it wasn't a good piece. Way too many red flags. The seller himself even states that he has no proof that it was worn by Gotlz. No, I am not absolutely sure it was not worn by Goltz. Old Twins jerseys can be a crapshoot thanks to Calvin Griffith. However being that I was looking for a Goltz and the seller isn't 100% sure it was worn by him then I have no interest in it. I buy items because they ARE worn by a player not because they COULD BE worn by a player.

I don't think there is anything left to say in this thread.