Opinion on possibly modified Carlos Lee bat

[cjosefy]

Someone sent me an email asking my opinion on these two bats, and I thought I'd throw it out for a larger net. The first link is the original auction:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150143879485

Now, here is the just finished auction for just the Carlos Lee bat:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270154754091

Looking at a great deal of factors on these bats, it looks to me that they are the same bat, except that the second auction has a load of pine tar on the bat.

Some of you guys have sharper eyes, so let me know what you see.

Thanks.

[Vintagedeputy]

It is exactly the same bat..........good catch.

Now I'd love to hear from the seller how pine tar got applied where none existed before.

[eGameUsed]

As many of you know I am the seller! I just answered two e-mails regarding this from the buyer of the auction and another collector. Let me start by saying I wish someone would have e-mailed me prior to the auction end, as I would have canceled the auction. The Lee bat was sold as received, and no pine tar wa added. After winning the auction of 6 bats just at the last minute, I paid, received the bats, and didn't look back. After doing some research I found that the Luke Scott bat is in similar situation with added tar in the lower handle area. All other bats appear fine! In fact, I took the following picture for a collector that was interested in a Lee bat the other day:

5782

The top bat is the bat in question! I never even thought to question the bat! I have already talked with the winner of the auction and intend on not selling this bat to them, as that is not how I handle my sales. I also e-mailed the seller. After researching the seller some I can not convince myself as to how this happened, as they appear to be in the bulk lost package business. Again, it would make sense if all the bats were altered or not as pictured, but only 2 of the 6 bats are different with similar pine tar. I am awaiting a response!

I have no need to alter one bat for any sort of gain. Obviously from the picture above I am not short on Lee bats. Again, I wish someone would have pointed this out to me prior to auction close, so I could have settled this earlier!

Thanks,

[Vintagedeputy]

Chris,

Thank you for stepping up and being available for questions. If I'm reading this correctly, are you saying that the bat you received from the 6 bat lot had pine tar applied when it arrived, which was different from the picture in the original auction that you won?

Jim

[Gyro123]

Would love to someday be in a financial position in which I could purchase bats and not even verify/comfirm that I received what I had purchased. Chris , you should thank your lucky stars to be in such a place. At least the mix up was caught and the situation resolved. Great investigative work.

[33bird]

So, the guy that you won the bats from, altered the Lee bat before he sent it to you? If that's what you're saying that doesn't make sense to me. Why would he go to that trouble? Please advise.
Greg

[eGameUsed]

Jim,

That is correct! The bat I had listed on eBay is as recived. In fact, the original wrapping it was in was a newspaper stock wrapping and it was stuck to the bat as I recall. The Luke Scott bat was in similar situation with the pine tar lower on the handle. Just a couple of more notes.

First, I sent the original seller a message through eBay this morning in addition to the e-mail I sent from the paypal.com e-mail address. I suspect the paypal.com address might not be checked as it is specific for payments.

Second, I have received multiple e-mails this morning presumably from forum members asking me how I could have done this and how they never plan on buying from me again. Again, no one brought this to my attention until the close of the auction. I am at fault for not inspecting the bat in comparison to the original listing.

Third, I came on the forum immediately this morning to post a note as I plan to be open about this situation. I also plan to post a note on my website in regards to this situation as I do not want some of my other customers to think I am trying to avoid this issue or decieve people. I have nothing to hide. Clearly from the picture above I am not going to try and pull a fast one. My reputation is more important to me than making $100. When I came on here this morning to post, I noticed that Chris Josefy already posted links to the auction. Again, I was never confronted with this prior to the auction close. Not questioning the intent of Chris Josefy to post or calling into question forum rules about asking sellers questions and giving appropriate time to respond, but I want people to to know they can ask questions and could have helped me a ton.

Finally, I do NOT intend to sell this bat or let is make it to the hobby. I was comfortable paying the $93 for the bat as pictured. Once received it went in to the Carlos Lee bat box with 9 other Lee Rawlings 2007 bats at the time. When choosing one to sell, I chose the uncracked one as my experience shows those tend to do better on eBay when trying to generate some business.

This forum is intended to help buyers make better decisions! I think it can also be a resource to sellers. I admit, I need help at times. In the future, if there is another situation like this, please e-mail me earlier so I can take the item off the market. In this case, this one slipped by me and I did not go through a full inspection of the bat. The buyer (Josh Garza) and myself have been in communication and the sale will not be completed. I offered him one of the other bats pictured above if he so desires, or we just nulify the sale. I plan to reconcil the issue, even if it means eating the $93 I paid for the bat. I handle hundreds of different Astros bats a year and don't want to loose any potential customer or cast a shadow of doubt because of this.

Thanks for reading!

[eGameUsed]

Would love to someday be in a financial position in which I could purchase bats and not even verify/comfirm that I received what I had purchased. Chris , you should thank your lucky stars to be in such a place. At least the mix up was caught and the situation resolved. Great investigative work.

George,

My current inventory of Astros bats is at 1362 as of this weekend. My inventory cost on those bats is $161,898.90. This is one of 8 Carlos Lee 2007 bats I currently have, and 1 of 19 I have had since he came to the Astros. This is also not my fulltime job! I admit there was an oversight. I admit there are times when I do not fully look over an item when received because of the volume I handle. The only bat I paid close attention to was the Preston Wilson bat as I had intended on a quick move on that one since it was outside of my speciality.

Thanks,

Chris

[eGameUsed]

So, the guy that you won the bats from, altered the Lee bat before he sent it to you? If that's what you're saying that doesn't make sense to me. Why would he go to that trouble? Please advise.
Greg

Greg,

I am waiting a response from the seller. I will post as soon as I receive. It does not make sense to me either. Same hold for the Luke Scott bat. I will be happy to post pictures of the Scott bat to show what I am talking about. Does it make sense that I would try to profit $150 on a bat when I handle $80,000 to $100,000 in sales per year?

Thanks,

[BaseballGM]

Last time I posted on a very similar situation regarding "stars added", I was suspended by the moderator. I may be this time. All I have to say is fool me once.....

[kingjammy24]

there are some incongruities here that are almost incomprehensible.

namely the idea that cargolargo, (a company that focuses on buying lost cargo shipments, unclaimed freight, manufacturer and distributor overstocks, and close-out merchandise had some pinetar lying around and decided to alter a bat to increase its value after they had already sold it. clearly they couldn't reap more money from the alteration, so i'm at a complete loss to understand any possible motive they may have had. it's also astonishing that cargolargo happened to apply the pinetar commensurate with Lee's use characteristics. someone at cargolargo really knows their Lee bats apparently!

chris, i believe you may have forgotten one more possible suspect in this caper: the mailman. your local mail carrier may also be a carlos lee bat expert who took it upon himself to open the package, apply "perfect Lee use characteristics" and then deliver the package. when you see him next time, be sure to ask him if he was the one. you may be sitting on the tip of a giant USPS bat-altering operation here.

the unfortunate part about this is that this seems to be the second time you've found yourself in a bizarre, inexplicable pinetar incident. the first time being here: http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=1447

first time around, pujols added stars, then he didn't. you didn't know if the bat was ever cracked, then you remember repairing it yourself. you're meticulous enough to know the cost of your inventory down to the penny, yet you aren't sure how your bats keep undergoing these mysterious transformations. anyway, i guess it's a good thing cargolargo happened to know lee's use characteristics. had they applied it in an inconsistent way, that would've been a real mess! it's a good thing they applied it in a way that would add value to your bat. the fact that we know that between cargolargo, your mailman, and you, you're the one who has definitely has pinetar lying around is likely irrelevant to this whole thing. the other unfortunate part about this is that now whenever you offer one of your great biggio bats, dripping in pinetar, people are naturally going to wonder how the pinetar really got there.

anyway, i'm confused by your explanation that neither of these things cannot be tied to you because you are financially well-off. that is, i fail to see the connection between being financially well-off and cutting corners to make even more money. since when has there ever been an amount of money that was enough? if there is indeed such an amount, i doubt it's $200k/yr. after seeing athletes who each make well over $15 million/year spend their time hawking $300 items, i don't believe making $200k/yr is an amount that would cause an individual to lose their desire for more money. if it is, then someone should've told jeff skilling. poor guy was making millions but oddly enough was willing to cut corners to make even more. or that nutty martha stewart, worth over $600 million, putting a stop-loss order in to save $40k. it's crazy how money hungry some people can be.

at the end of the day, i usually find the most plausable explanations are also the most likely. that's why i believe it was the mailman. the USPS should be ashamed.

rudy.

[kingjammy24]

just wanted to comment on the general notion of how a little becomes a lot without any reference whatsoever to this particular situation.

$100 may not seem like a lot. however, assuming one could obtain $100 more for a bat with "heavy use and perfect characteristics" than for one with light use, then $100 x 1400 bats = $140,000 extra. all of a sudden a little gravy just turned into a flood.

rudy.

[eGameUsed]

Rudy,

Thanks for your insight and wit! It contributes tremendously to the game used hobby. I should have avoided this issue, in fact I think I will just cease caring at why the items were altered and sell them to unsuspecting buyers. I see why others quicky leave this forum. I make an attempt to understand this and get persecuted.

Thanks,

[eGameUsed]

Eric/Chris/Whoever,

Can you please explain to me why posts are allowed that do not add to the topic of the thread? Also, how did the original post stay unedited since I was not e-mailed this issue before the close of the auction? Does that violate forum policy? According to Rule #16 and 17:

16. In instances where a forum member is identifying an item in the hobby they believe to have issues, it is expected that the poster clearly state their findings in the form of an opinion and provide adequate rationale for why they believe there is an issue. When possible, it is expected that the poster questioning an item will attempt to contact the seller of the item and allow at least 24 hours for the seller to reply before posting. This will prevent postings that may be generated based on misunderstandings of an item.

17. It is expected that all posts are to be created with a sincere attempt to benefit the hobby. Any posts which the Administrator deems as a personal attack or an attempt to unnecessarily discredit others will be subject to the administrative rules of the forum.

Also, BaseballGM and Rudy reference past thread topics that are not relative to the current topic. Does that violate forum policy? According to Rule #7 and 12:

7. No Trolling or Baiting. You will not post any topic that disrupts the peace and harmony of this forum. Please do not create meaningless threads with the sole purpose of starting a dispute. This includes messages in profiles and signatures.

12. No Topic Changing. Please do not derail threads because you do not agree with their content. If you do not like what you read, find or start a different thread.

Thanks,

[YankeeChowda]

as brought to my attention about the pujols bat too..ha.. I can see maybe minor mistakes, if you can call any dubbing of bats minor. But this hobby doesnt need fake people out there that are tryin to make an extra buck by screwing the collector.

If you want to lie about it, how bout you go all the way with it.. Maybe list a new bat as followed.
Barry Bonds 890th HR bat. Yes, it wont happen, but if he was to hit 890 hrs this would be the bat he would hit it with... Included with the bat is the ball,(that he would have hit into mcovey cove), this is also autographed in barrys blood so you can have it really dna tested. Bat shows great use(future use) and comes with a COA brought to you by God.. Who can question that?? IF you Buy-it-Now i will also include 3 syringes from balco, which were used by Barry, Mac, and Sammy.

With love,
Toilet Duck

[Gyro123]

Chris- I do not believe Rudy is on a witch hunt here. I definately think that enough coincidences exist between both the Lee and Pujols bat fiascos to at least warrant questioning... no? You addressed the issue after the bat came under questioning. While honorable, this alone should not act as a shield from others who may still have questions. Do I feel that you should be subject to persecution? No, but you have to understand that serious doubt does exist at this point and people are just looking to gather info and formulate there own opinions.

[Vintagedeputy]

Chris,

I, for one am all for giving people an opportunity to explain themselves. I think that I was the second poster in this thread and my reply was simply that I'd like to see what the seller (you) has to say about it.

With that said, you have to understand 2 things here. One, the whole situation just flat out looks bad. I'm sure that you have a good reputation but look at it through the eyes of the casual collector here. You must admit that even if on the surface, something appears amiss.

The other thing is that with so much fraudulent stuff floating around, people are always going to go into accusatory mode. As a seller, you have to develop a thick skin and sometimes ride the tide. Hopefully your past business practices will help you and not hurt you in the eyes of the collector.

Just my 2 cents on the matter.......

Jim

[sarahsdad]

How many of you out there were wondering how long it would take for the Pujols bat to be referenced? I for one thought it would take at least 24 hours. But how ironic that a similar incident follows the same seller of the Pujols bat. What are the odds? a wise man once told me, "Son, sometimes it is what it is".
Sarahsdad

[33bird]

Chris seems to be a little like Pete Rose. Slowly the truths comes out and we really get to know the man, but it takes awhile. I HIGHLY doubt the sellers of those bats would add pinetar after they already sold the bats. To what purpose? It's definately the same bat and was doctored after you bought it to make it appear MORE like a Lee bat. Thus, a better profit. I believe Chris has real gamer stuff, but likes to alter them for certain reasons. Not just for profit, but maybe just to see if he can get away with it. Pujols and now Lee-and others I'm guessing that we never caught. This all just makes me frusturated because I've bought a lot of stuff from Chris over the years and now I wonder if things were added or altered. It's all a little strange and sad.
Greg

[kingjammy24]

there were only 3 possible parties involved: cargolargo, the shipper, chris boyd.

if you look at chris' photo showing his group of lee bats, all of the lee bats have pine tar in the same place. apparently an expert on houston astros bats, chris feels that the pinetar constitutes "perfect Lee use characteristics". clearly, chris is knowledgable about lee's use characteristics.

conversely, looking at the cargolargo ad, it's apparent they have no idea what a lance berkman bat even looks like. they call it "LB?" as they're unable to make out the signature on the bat. their ad makes no mention of model numbers or use characteristics. the only thing they're really able to say is "All bats appear to be pine construction". it's clear that game used bats aren't their speciality and they likely wouldn't know carlos lee's use characteristics if their lives depended on it. the pine tar on this bat however perfectly matches the others shown in chris' photos. clearly it was applied by someone knowledgable about lee's bats.

i can't even wrap my head around what a mystery this is. out of the 3 parties involved, who would have the motive and knowledge to do something like this? it's clear that cargolargo didn't have any motive or even the knowledge to apply the pinetar correctly. (from a seller's perspective, it'd be detrimental to alter an item after you've sold it because the buyer would receive an item that didn't match what they thought they'd bought.) i have to think the same is true of the shipper (USPS, FedEx, etc). so that means the only party who had both the motive and the knowledge is chris boyd and he swears it wasn't him. if none of those 3 did it, then who?! chris do you have a wife or kids? are any of them knowledgable about lee's bats to the point where they'd be able to perfectly mimic a pine tar application that also matches all of your other lee bats? if so, i believe we may have found the culprit.

anyway, perhaps chris is right and we've all missed the important point here. clearly we should focus on the fact that chris was not notified first and that posting the pujols thread may have possibly broken forum rule #12 regarding thread relevance.

rudy.

[sarahsdad]

Unfortunately for Chris rule #12 thread relevance does apply. The introduction of the Pujols "modification" shows that he has engaged in this type of behavior prior to the Carlos Lee "modification" so how is the Pujols thread not relevant? And what rule shall we apply to the Pujols "modification"? Thou shalt not....... And when you have to cite rule #12 or any other rule as part of your defense then I believe you are beginning to grasp at straws.
sarahsdad

[hblakewolf]

George,

My current inventory of Astros bats is at 1362 as of this weekend. My inventory cost on those bats is $161,898.90. This is one of 8 Carlos Lee 2007 bats I currently have, and 1 of 19 I have had since he came to the Astros. This is also not my fulltime job! I admit there was an oversight. I admit there are times when I do not fully look over an item when received because of the volume I handle. The only bat I paid close attention to was the Preston Wilson bat as I had intended on a quick move on that one since it was outside of my speciality.

Thanks,

Chris

Chris-

I visited your web site, however, your current inventory of all game used bats for sale is less than 50. Likewise, did I miss the photos on your site that shows your total collection? Where can we review this simply amazing inventory of 1,362 Astros bats? Can you post a few photos here of the most prized bats, and likewise, possibly a group shot of all of them?

I've sold hundreds of bats over the last 20 years, and can't even begin to try to think where one could store or display such a huge assortment. Likewise, it's almost 3,000 pounds of total wood!

Hats off to you for having such an amazing collection of Astros bats.

Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

[Bigcatbaseball]

There are so many knowlegable and honest dealers associated with GUU, why trade with anyone who has a questionable reputation? If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck and waddles like a duck, it's a duck!

[Juicyfruit66]

I just bought a Dennis Martinez bat from Chris Boyd , when I got it I noticed there was an inscription rubbed off the barrel. It looked like a legit Martinez signature to me, I found it odd that someone would remove it. Chris said he didn't realize it was there.

[Juicyfruit66]

I didn't post this reply to the old 2007 thread to complain or anything, my transaction went great with Chris and I like the bat. I had no issue, I just thought the inscription was worth pointing out. By adding the comment I made the thread current again which wasn't my intention.

[Juicyfruit66]

Just the fact there have been no updates to the thread in almost 10 years is a good sign maybe the past is the past.